‘Gogwatch’ and the execution of the Welsh language.

We were introduced this week to the political musings of Gogwatch, an online community who present themselves as having ‘been set up by a group of people who care passionately about Wales and the Welsh people’. Yet, they qualify their intentions by making clear that they ‘are opposed to how the Welsh language is being forced upon our nation as a matter of principle’. Now, in such stated notions there is nothing inherently wrong you might think; free speech and all that. If you are concerned about the impacts of the forced application of the learning of the Welsh language then you would be standing by your beliefs by speaking out against it yes? Yet when working through the pages of this so called ‘voice of the silent majority’, there appears to be something far more sinister at work.

A selection of titles of Gogwatch blog entries offers a clear indication towards the intent of these people. ‘I come from Pembrokeshire – the Welsh language doesn’t belong here’, ‘Quest for “Welshness” is ruining our children’s education’, ‘Welsh education policy is serving nationalism ― not our children’, ‘Don’t speak Welsh? That’s OK, we might discriminate against you!’, and of course, ‘Dying for the Welsh language?’. The last title is particularly revealing, as Gogwatch attempt to paint a picture, where an emphasis on the support of the Welsh language, is the direct cause of cancer related deaths in Wales! These are pages of fear, constructive scare mongering that would make cold war propaganda experts particularly proud.

While the gibbering anger on display is a source of both concern and amusement, it is the volume of traffic that this savage little entry to the Welsh political blogosphere that should be particularly concerning. While the comments sections of the majority of blog entries include a balance of views and opinions, it is clear that the moderators are siphoning out the more vocal responses that oppose the words of the so called ‘silent majority’…interesting how a group can complain about not being heard, while clearly looking to control the voice of those they claim to control them. Put simply, Gogwatch is not a forum for debate, it is a table upon which sits a royal crest, a rose of England, and a white flag of surrender, with serried ranks of the eager to pleasers, longing to suckle from the white elephant of English language, English culture and English control.

Make no mistake about it Wales, Gogwatch is no friend of the Welsh language – they claim to be a friend of Wales and the Welsh people, yet their intentions are transparent to the extreme. Gogwatch is a friend of the Wales that is no longer Welsh. That is not to say that you must speak Welsh to be Welsh, but a Wales without the Welsh language will no longer be Wales, put simply, it would be England. That is not to say that there is anything inherently wrong with England, but it is culturally distinct and unique from Wales, and the language plays an essential defining role in that distinction. A Wales without Welsh may as well abandon its rugby team, close down the Senedd (which of course Gogwatch would love to do), pull down the flag of the red dragon, place it in a box, then burnt and cast into the Celtic Sea, hoping that the charred remains might wash up upon the shores of Ireland, where someone across the water might recall their once having been a nation known as Wales.

Gogwatch has a single clear unstated goal – the execution of the Wales language. There is nothing balanced about their commentary, nothing inclusive about their community and no intention bar one, to march the Welsh language into a chamber at night when none are looking, and flood it with the toxic gas of the English word, hoping once and for all to finish the job of generations of invaders and traitors to the notion of Wales, the final solution to the problem of the Welsh language, its total and complete extermination.

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  1. Thanks for visiting my site, appreciate that! Why would these people want to wipe out a language? Seems rather ridiculous.

    • Thanks back – and indeed, a very good question to ask of them, thankfully, although they claim to be the ‘silent majority’, we’ve found few who share their thoughts.

        • llan
        • May 30th, 2013

        hi eyeonwales, can you moderate my last post please? it has a couple fof email addresses on it i want people to see.

      • Ceri
      • June 11th, 2012

      No-one wants to destroy the Welsh language!!! Fanaticism in ANY form is wrong. To claim that this blog is in english bcause people cannot write in welsh is ridiculous! If you can speak welsh you can write it!!

      I can both speak and write welsh when I choose to. That is the point – when I CHOOSE to. I would not object to people speaking english if they CHOSE to!

      This is why Plaid Cymru is finding it difficult to get votes away from the welsh heartlands.

      I notice that any differing points of view on this site are scorned. At least on Gogwatch there are varying opinions.

      Just because I am welsh (and proud to be so) does not mean that I have to hate other countries!

        • Larry
        • June 11th, 2012

        Here we go, I was wondering how long it would be before an undercover Gogwatcher showed up here acting all ‘MI5′ and pretending to be a “reasonable and well-balanced” Welsh speaker sticking up for ‘choice’.

        • Ceri
        • June 11th, 2012

        I am hardly an “undercover” gogwatcher. Just a person who likes to read differing points of view. So Larry, being reasonable is now a dirty word is it? Well perhaps it is in your world!

        If you are a supposed to be a representative of the “welsh speaking clique” – we really have problems in wales! Do not presume to represent, or speak for me or my (reasonable) welsh speaking/welsh writing! friends.

        Perhaps you would like to continue your posts in welsh, I am perfectly happy to do so. Or are you, like many, just words but no action?

        • Larry
        • June 11th, 2012

        Iawn te, os ti moin trafod y peth yn Gymraeg sdim ots da fi! Ti yw’r un sy’n dod rownd ma’n wyllt gacwn yn myn mlan am ‘ddewis’ ac ati. Ma’r holl beth o son am ryw fath o glîc Cymraeg yn folocs wir – y fath o rwtsh sy’n cael ei gachu mas o seit y lembos na, a dwin gallu betio dy fod din un ohonynt.

        “I notice that any differing points of view on this site are scorned. At least on Gogwatch there are varying opinions.”

        Ie, ond oleia ma nhw’n cal eu cyhoeddi met! Fi di postio nifer o bethe ar Gogwatch nad sy’n cynnwys un gair brwnt nac unrhyw beth cas, ond efallai sy’n ‘rhy agos i’r asgwrn’, fel dwed y Saes, ac am ryw rheswm dyw’r peth byth yn ymddangos. Ma nhw’n digon hapus i gyhoeddi negeseuon sy’n ymddangos yn ‘hiliol’ yn erbyn Saeson, ar y llaw arall – ma fe’n ddefnyddiol ti’n gweld, ma fe’n ffitio mewn i’r ffantasi bo siaradwyr Cymraeg yn ryw fath o eithafwyr wallgo.

        “Just because I am welsh (and proud to be so) does not mean that I have to hate other countries!”

        Errrrm, be? Be ti mlan am? Pwy wedodd unrhywbeth am gasau gwledydd eraill? Dwi’n dwli ar wledydd arall met, ac yn dysgu’n saethfed iaith estron ary foment! Sdim byd gore na threulio amsar mewn gwledydd arall yn cal peint bach neu ddeg efo’r bobl lleol, rhywbeth bydde rhyw stiff bach grac fel ti’n cael lles o mae’n siwr ;)

        I look forward eagerly and earnestly to your considered response my friend.

      • That would have to be one of the most entertainingly short sighted comments I have seen on the subject. Your words: ‘if you can speak welsh you can write it’…so one would presume you have never come across anyone who is illiterate? That state does not exist in anyone who can speak their language right? But well done for contributing, even if the contribution would have to be one of the densest ever offered.

        • Ceri
        • June 11th, 2012

        Larry – I posted a reply in Welsh but the powers to be seem to have chosen not to print it!! Possibly he can speak but not read welsh!!
        Unbiased hmmmm

      • Getting on for slander there Ceri – all your comments are approved. I’ve double checked pending and spam box for comments, and nothing from you in Welsh there either. No comments are removed here, all views welcome, whether agreed with or not.

        (powers ‘that be’, not ‘to be’ btw)

        • Larry
        • June 11th, 2012

        Nice try Ceri. Your claim that you’re representative of the more ‘reasonable’ welsh speakers who are in favour of ‘choice’ is obviously a load of guff. Nice try though, but wen you’re lying about who are you should try being less obvious.;
        Noslpi? Shudder? Scudder?Border mummy? Come on, which one are you? My mate says he’ll buy me a Guinness if I guess correctly.

        • Ceri
        • June 11th, 2012

        Wel Larry, dyma ni unwaith eto…….2nd bostio!

        Rwy’n byw mewn ardal sy’n siarad Saesneg fel y gallaf weld y ddau safbwynt. Rwy’n teimlo bod lle i ddwy iaith yng Nghymru! Yr wyf yn meddwl fy mod yn iawn, ydych chi’n meddwl eich bod yn iawn felly rydym ni yn amlwg yn mynd i gytuno.

        Mae’r ysbyty mwyaf yng Nghymru mewn angen dybryd o ymgynghorwyr ac ati., rydym hefyd angen buddsoddiadau o’r tu allan ac i ddenu busnes i Gymru. Fi jyst yn teimlo y dylem ni fod yn annog hannog i beidio hyn. Yn gam neu’n gymwys, mae pobl yn dechrau teimlo bod apartheid iaith yng Nghymru. Ni all hyn yn helpu’r economi!

        Rwy’n gwybod na fyddwch yn cytuno a mi, ond, ac mae hyn yn bwysig, gennyf hawl i gael fy safbwynt…….fel wyt ti!

        Larry – bydd rhaid i ni gytuno i anghytuno!

        “eyeonwales” – Athrod! – Sue fi!

        • Ceri
        • June 11th, 2012

        And here is me thinking that perhaps, just perhaps, you are a reasonable person after all! Because I have a differing point of view I am “suspect” It can’t possibly be that people can disagree with you! Paranoid is not the word. I speak and write welsh out of choice! I accept welsh is not my first language – but I chose to learn it and I use it quite frequently.

        So no, your friend, cannot buy you that guiness because I am who I say I am – are you?

        I will not post again as it is quite obvious this blog is for self important, puffed up inward looking people with only one point of view!!!

        No wonder Plaid Cymru cannot get anywhere in the polls (by the way Leanne Wood does not speak welsh she is “learning welsh” ask yourself why now? – political reasons only!! she has no love for the language)

      • Apologies if I insulted. Certainly don’t want to do that.

    • Sion
    • March 9th, 2012

    I can provide evidence of the way they censor comments that pose valid arguments against their propaganda.

    They also like to lie and claim that comments they delete have been abusive or offensive.

    Email me if you want me to send you the proof, although it sounds like you’ve already experienced the same tricks!

    Sion.

    • Hi Sion – thanks for the insights there, certainly not a unique experience from wider discussions that we’ve had. Perhaps we can reveal that evidence at some point in the future. For the moment, it’s simply entertaining that Gogwatch seems to be aware of this commentary, and is currently going around in circles talking about it. Should they ever become more of a coherent threat to Wales I’m sure we will make quick use of such commentary control evidence, but for now they remain akin to a noisy child – you won’t give them more attention than they need, but you certainly keep an eye on them ;)

    • Mike Owen
    • March 10th, 2012

    Well said, I had the misfortune of reading some of Gogwatch stuff, I felt like I had just been for a swim in the sewers. What an odious, bigoted site. It even makes the EDL seem quite liberal and progressive in comparison. Welsh language is something that should be cherished, whether you speak it or not. Wales has moved on, something the blinkered and poisonous idiot behind Gogwatch will never understand.

    • Thanks for commenting Mike, glad to hear more like minded views on this topic (though we would really welcome some Gogwatch fans to comment as well…though as yet, they seem happy to snipe from afar, while offering nothing over here…). We could not agree more, the Welsh language is something to be cherished. Gogwatch and it’s followers seem to have taken the line that because something is not favoured financially, it’s not worth doing – rather mirroring many negative political attitudes directed towards anything progressive in Wales for decades. Such lines of attack are sadly short sighted, misguided and critically outdated: they would sell out the last remnants of Wales for a seat at the union, and a Christmas hamper from the Queen.

      • Ceri
      • June 10th, 2012

      so why post in English and not Welsh!!

      • Why not? This blog is largely maintained by those who can speak and read Welsh, not necessarily write in it, largely because writing Welsh was never offered in state schools during the authors education.

    • Gemma
    • March 10th, 2012

    needed to be said. gogwatch seems full of lots of really angry sad people who hate wales. thanks for fighting them for us!!!

    • Thanks Gemma – more and more voices coming in in support now, great to hear. Should stress, gogwatch is no real threat to anything, but as with any force that would look to destroy a cultural identity, this one needs to be monitored.

    • Mathew
    • March 12th, 2012

    The latest epiphany from the gogwatch tardis!

    ‘Bilingual road signs are more dangerous than driving on your mobile’

    If that is the case, then perhaps we need a new road safety campaign;

    Learning Welsh saves lives!

    (Except for the fact of course that bilingual roadsigns haven’t lead to any deaths)

    What’s next?… The Welsh language shot JFK!?

    • Ha, that’s brilliant – thank you Mathew, gogwatch really do seem intent on clutching to any irrational straw within their reach. One wonders how many poor non-Welsh speakers cope when travelling overseas, what with all the funny language signs they must come across – it’s a miracle that so many make it back alive! ;)

      Shameless petty stuff from an online community that we have come to expect nothing less from.

        • Mathew
        • March 12th, 2012

        I’m beginning to wonder whether Austin Healey might be involved in some way?

  2. :) On current form I would not bet against Healey’s involvement.

  3. Judging by one of their posts, they can’t even get published in the Daily Mail. Which is ironic.

    • Ha, yes a fair point I feel – such is the extreme nature of their contributions. Thanks for commenting.

    • Mike Owen
    • April 16th, 2012

    Well said Ricardo, have you seen this letter defending Welsh language education and bilingualism, it superbly answers all the ingnorant prejudices of a minority with facts – http://www.tivysideadvertiser.co.uk/news/letters/9638493.Benefits_of_bilingualism/?ref=twtrec

    • Ricardo
    • May 4th, 2012

    @mike – thanks for the letter link, it’s a great read. Also check out the article that has recently appeared on BBC News about the cognitive benefits of bilingualism. To be honest, it’s been a known fact for years that speaking more than one language is beneficial in many ways – one of the many things that Gogwatchers, in their angry little crusade, like to gloss over.

    @eyeonWales – I agree with you, to be honest I like to have a look at what they’re up to from time to time, but what I meant was that their rantings shouldn’t be taken seriously in the sense that they should not be given any kind of stage. As with the BNP, to take such air-headed ranting seriously lends it a degree of legitimacy. I agree with you though, we should all become gogwatchwatchers. I hope, however, that the intellectual glass-ceiling under which they struggle will prevent them from ever graduating above the level of irritating twits.

    • Entertaining comment in there on the idea of Welsh never having been the first language of the country. Some wonderful selective history on offer there!

    • John
    • May 26th, 2012

    I had to laugh when I first encountered Gogwatch – the claimed ‘tolerance’ of the Welsh language sat rather uncomfortably with the constant tirades against the language, and yet they claimed to be supportive of Cymraeg too! There is something decidedly schizoid about Gogwatch, a quality that puts me in mind of the Labour Party of South Wales of old, (well, ok, the present day South Wales Labour Party too, but they’re better at hiding it these days – though when you look at their ‘support’ for the protective legislation, they get a ‘…could do much better’ on their end of term report). I guess I hadn’t connected North Wales with such bigotry, silly me!

    I agree, Gogwatch needs to have an eye kept on it, but not given too much credence – I’m just glad that those particular myopic bigots have that site to rant on.

  4. Ceri :

    I notice that any differing points of view on this site are scorned. At least on Gogwatch there are varying opinions.

    Hardly, there is next to no ‘differing points of view’ offered in the comments. Your comment has been knocked down because you seem to think that everyone who can speak a language can automatically write in it – may as well not bother with reading and writing in schools for any language then seeing how naturally you seem to think those skills come. Constructive debate is encouraged, simply daft statements will receive the mockery they deserve.

      • Ceri
      • June 11th, 2012

      Larry wrote that his posts had not been published on Gog watch – he felt that they did not want a differing point of view. So anyone who disagrees with your views is “daft”

      As for people who cannot write welsh being “illitererate” – Sorry!! I thought this blog was for “informed discussion” probably difficult for – as you put it – “illiterate” people!

      You feel my outlook is “dense” any more dense than carrying out a blog about the purity and superiority of the Welsh language purely in English!!!

      • Hrm, I think we have a case of hearing what you want to hear.

        Okay, 1 by 1 and then time for some tea.

        Point 1. Your view is not arbitrarily daft because it is different, it is daft because you assert that everyone who can speak a language can write in it. I’m hoping you are intelligent enough to understand how ridiculous a statement that is, but if you stand by what is a daft statement, then said statement will continue to be classified as ‘daft’.

        2. Not entirely sure what point you are making there. Just because the argument cannot be put forward in one language, does not make the same argument in another language and more or less relevant.

        3. I would be entertained if you can highlight where, at any point, this blog argues about the ‘purity’ and or ‘superiority’ of the Welsh language. The dangers of other languages are addressed certainly, but the relative strength or purity of Welsh over any other is certainly not made as an argument…however, I do get the sense you are reading your perceived responses, rather than that which is put in front of you…

  5. Ceri :

    Wel Larry, dyma ni unwaith eto…….2nd bostio!

    Rwy’n byw mewn ardal sy’n siarad Saesneg fel y gallaf weld y ddau safbwynt. Rwy’n teimlo bod lle i ddwy iaith yng Nghymru! Yr wyf yn meddwl fy mod yn iawn, ydych chi’n meddwl eich bod yn iawn felly rydym ni yn amlwg yn mynd i gytuno.

    Mae’r ysbyty mwyaf yng Nghymru mewn angen dybryd o ymgynghorwyr ac ati., rydym hefyd angen buddsoddiadau o’r tu allan ac i ddenu busnes i Gymru. Fi jyst yn teimlo y dylem ni fod yn annog hannog i beidio hyn. Yn gam neu’n gymwys, mae pobl yn dechrau teimlo bod apartheid iaith yng Nghymru. Ni all hyn yn helpu’r economi!

    Rwy’n gwybod na fyddwch yn cytuno a mi, ond, ac mae hyn yn bwysig, gennyf hawl i gael fy safbwynt…….fel wyt ti!

    Larry – bydd rhaid i ni gytuno i anghytuno!

    “eyeonwales” – Athrod! – Sue fi!

    Hard to sue someone with no identity, but perhaps you would care to retract you comment regarding the manipulation of comments here – yours is there for the world to see, whatever when wrong with your first effort to post, was a problem at your end, not ours.

    Wheeling out the tired hospital investment arguments is it? This theme comes up time and again with the gogwatch crowd, where the platform is essentially created that cultural distinctiveness is not worth investment. That is the argument you put forward, because gogwatchers seem to live in a world where you cannot have both, you can have language investment, or hospital investment, but not both – it is baseless and ultimately pointless. If Welsh language spending was cut, what argument exists to say that that money would straight away be poured into hospitals?

    The apartheid argument is equally flawed. You argue against cultural segregation, yet the Welsh language status today is not one of minority through organic decline, but from the very cultural apartheid you are arguing against, seen very actively in our life time. Are you going to try and paint Mugabe style scare stories now of English home owners being driven off of their farms? Maybe your argument would have some weight if this was the 1970s in Wales, but you’re a bit out of date. The safeguarding of a language, as with any cultural tradition essential to the cultural distinctiveness of a nation/culture, is just that, essential.

  6. Ceri :

    And here is me thinking that perhaps, just perhaps, you are a reasonable person after all! Because I have a differing point of view I am “suspect” It can’t possibly be that people can disagree with you! Paranoid is not the word. I speak and write welsh out of choice! I accept welsh is not my first language – but I chose to learn it and I use it quite frequently.

    So no, your friend, cannot buy you that guiness because I am who I say I am – are you?

    I will not post again as it is quite obvious this blog is for self important, puffed up inward looking people with only one point of view!!!

    No wonder Plaid Cymru cannot get anywhere in the polls (by the way Leanne Wood does not speak welsh she is “learning welsh” ask yourself why now? – political reasons only!! she has no love for the language)

    A lot of noise in there, none of which addresses anything. The suspicions I think levied against you Ceri stem from the fact that a word for word statement matching yours was posted on the sister blog to this site by another first name only female blogger. The identities are being questioned in this instance, rather than the content of your comments.

    However, need to get yourself up to speed on Leanne and Plaid. Pretty baseless statements being thrown at the party leader, though if it is being learnt for ‘political reasons’, surely that indicates that the Welsh language is indeed a relevant political issue? As for Plaid, while Wood had little time to reshape the party, they still came in second in the most recent ballot of the electorate, the local elections. Coming in second while having a bad set of results in the eyes of some for a leader who has had next to no time to achieve anything, does not seem that big a disaster, especially when compared to Tory and LibDem results in Wales. Keep up!

  7. John :

    Apologies if I insulted. Certainly don’t want to do that.

    Don’t feel the need to apologies John, it would be appear that we have a guest from the featured website visiting at the moment. If you ever want to pain yourself, head over for a peek at some of the comments on their own pages, you will find high blood pressure and short fuses to be a common feature ;)

    • M Owen
    • June 12th, 2012

    “Ceri” – seems to be using google translate for writing in Welsh, as a lot of what she is incoherent goobledigook, as well as being fatuous nonsense. “Ceri” os dyna be ydy dy enw, gwranda bach, paid a malu cachu gyda gyda dy rwtsh anwybodus a rhagfarnllyd. I agree EyeOnWales, look like a Gogwatch troll has discovered a sudden liking for your website :)

    • So it would seem. Of course they are very welcome, especially when those few to contribute comments do so in such an entertaining manner :)

  8. Thanks for all the debate here. It would seem though that some people are upset about some posters trying to ‘out’ people from gogwatch or related sites. Please feel free to discuss and debate the goals of gogwatch, but perhaps refrain from witch hunting people’s identities.

    Frankly, we don’t care a great deal about who is saying what, or whether or not some comments come from the same individuals, it does not make any real difference here, all debate is welcome, but debate does not require some great unmasking.

    So, please do keep the debate flowing, whatever the sentiments on gogwatch, pro/con – and can we assure that there is no policy to ban pro comments, if you disagree with the above comments, get involved and say so, just keep it constructive. But to those intent on outing others, please do so in hearty conversation in the pub.

    Best to all, and do keep on chatting, debating and/or ranting.

  9. Noticed a lot of gogwatch referrals to the site today, so followed the path and found a poster has linked this page to a response. Just to follow up on this part of their comment:

    ‘that they demand one’s eMail address prior to posting. Despite their claim that it would not be published, I think that we may be assured that it would be passed on to certain ‘interested parties’’

    The need for an email address is wordpress comment policy rather than ours. Addresses are clearly not published, while we welcome any evidence to indicate we have passed on any information – it would be impressive if it exists because it has never happened.

    However, always happy to see gogwatchers slander away without evidence, it is after all the mark of their debate policy.

    • Rob
    • July 15th, 2012

    If you feel the need to use legal terminology then at least get it right!! slander is the spoken word – libel is the written word!!!!

    • Okay Rob – ‘always happy to see gogwatchers type libelous comments without evidence’. Hope the legal clarification makes you happy :) .

        • Rob
        • July 16th, 2012

        Just a bit of constructive criticism, but this site certainly does not seem to like the c word in any shape or form.

      • Hrm, example perhaps? I think we took on your suggestion a moment ago no? As for any other ‘criticism’, we receive and invite all comments, and should comments come in, they will be replied to. It’s not out fault if the criticism that does come our way is so insubstantial to amount to little more than white noise and in turn can be easily shot down. If substantial meaningful criticism is presented then we’ll take it on board, sadly, apart from your legal suggestion, little of a constructive nature comes in from certain sides of the debate, and there is little we can do about that.

    • Megan
    • July 18th, 2012

    I have noticed that most comments on this forum seem to be rather one sided with few opposing views. Do you edit comments?

    • Thanks for the comment Megan, even if it is a little accusatory. Interestingly enough the only comments that have ever been removed from these blog pages were anti-gogwatch comments that attempted to identify pro-gogwatch bloggers. So if anything, the comments that have been removed helped to (comparatively) balance the argument here out a little.

      So in short, the only comments that have ever been removed were done so due to the release of private information, and we stand by that policy, Pretty much everything else goes.

      As for things being one sided, we keep stressing that both gogwatch threads are there for open debate. Unfortunately little constructive or developed debate has come against the core theme of the blogpost. Other than that, little in the form of opposing views are submitted, and there’s not a great deal that we can do about that.

    • Oh, just to clarify. No – no comments are ever edited, comments that break privacy rights are just removed.

    • Meinwen
    • August 27th, 2012

    “Welsh to be encouraged in all hospitals” Here is the bad news, because of all the money spent on promoting Welsh language in hospitals we cannot afford to treat you! – Here is the good news we can tell you that we cannot treat you in Welsh!!!!!!!

    • Ah, the return of the good ol’ ‘Welsh language budget equals to the cost of everything else in the world’ argument, never get tired of that one being wheeled out.

        • Meinwen
        • August 29th, 2012

        I am glad you never get tired of hearing this argument, as you will be hearing it a lot more in the future! Especially when the true costs will be available to the Welsh public. I understand that several “freedom of information” requests regarding costs are in the process of being made.

        No doubt when these are available you will have further excuses to make. No wonder people don’t want to vote for Plaid Cymru. By the way, why do you run this column in English if you hate that language so much? Is it because you accept that most people read and speak in English and that if it was in Welsh you would have no readers!

        If you have such strong principles change the language to Welsh.

      • Still spinning it eh. One wonders what Gogwatch will do when the ‘great conspiracy’ of the billions ‘wasted’ on the Welsh language fails to materialise?

        As for the Welsh language view, contributors here tend to be able to speak and read Welsh but not write in it, a result of the language being very deliberately removed from our reach during schooling years. We are working on it, and hope in time to be able to write eloquently enough in Welsh as we do in English. We’ve covered this on the blog in the past.

        However Meinwen, were we to do that, it would seem that you would stop dropping in on us, and you are too entertaining to be lost in the short term.

    • Rob Gruffudd
    • August 27th, 2012

    Meinwen – either read the reports / documents and refer to them correctly or dare I suggest – speak not about things you do not understand!!! The issue in the medical world is not about forms / signs etc etc being bilingual it is about doctors being bilingual in their care of patients … that is when I have to go into hopsital I can discuss my health in my mother tongue rather than a language that I did not speak until I was four and then was taught it as a second language (i.e English). All the debate is about is ensuring that medics are able to do this – so we need to train them to be able to do this. Letting the language die or not encouraging medics to speak the language with patients will not save a single cancer patient.

    • Meinwen
    • August 29th, 2012

    So – If you had a choice of being treated by a mediocre doctor who spoke Welsh and a top class doctor who spoke English, you would choose the mediocre doctor to treat you and your family, how strange!! It is attitudes such as yours that are preventing doctors and consultants from coming to Wales and, in fact, is driving them out!

    The forms/signs that you mention are already bilingual so why would I need to mention those? In fact I, and many others, have no problems with that. It is the “weeding out” of non- Welsh speaking medical staff that is of concern. Perhaps you should read the documents properly and see exactly what this would mean to the Health Authorities concerned.

    Statistics (that eye-on-wales are so fond of) show that everyone in Wales can speak English. Not everyone can speak Welsh!! If a good doctor can speak Welsh then that is an added bonus, but if they don’t that should not stop them from bringing their skills to Wales.

    “None so blind as those who won’t see” springs to mind! Your letter shows that you are eloquent in English, so what exactly is your problem. If people want to learn Welsh they should pay for it. If they don’t then that is their choice. And please don’t state the usual “go back where you come from” (very constructive and helpful to the economy) I was born in Wales, my parents are Welsh, we just happen to live in the Rhondda Valleys where Welsh is usually a second language.

    • Would love to see those statistics by the way. We don’t ‘love’ statistics, we love evidence being used when it exists. You are probably correct, yet your argument relies on the usual presumptive methods of Gogwatch.

      Otherwise, it’s hard to really decipher your line of argument. You advocate choice on one hand, then argue that choice should be suppressed.

      You argue that those who want to speak Welsh should have to pay for it, so what, that the language becomes the preserve of only an elite wealth based section of society? Are you advocating banning the choice for a free Welsh education to those who want it? What of Welsh language tax payers who contribute the same amount as everyone else? Are their voices to be tossed to the wall to satisfy your need for convenience?

      You advocate choice, yet seem intend on arguing for a Wales in which choice is a privilege only for those who can afford it, how very generous.

    • Meinwen
    • August 30th, 2012

    I now have had time to read all the posts on your Blog and it seems to me that every time someone takes a different stance from you – Gogwatch is mentioned! I found the Gogwatch site but unfortunately they are having a break over summer. I will be very interested to read their site when it re-opens. I hope it is not as one-sided and as defensive as yours.

    I too will be interested in the statistics when they are finally in the public domain.

    I note you did not address my concerns about the cost to the NHS. If it is a choice of paying towards the best medical treatment and drugs or mediocre treatment, lack of drugs but being able to access Welsh speakers in the NHS, I know what my family, friends and co-workers would prefer!

    • Well, you might note that the theme of the thread is regarding Gogwatch, so you might be a little less surprised by any repeat referrals to that site…

      Your NHS v Language issue was not addressed because there is no substance to your question. It is not an either or scenario. The budgets for staff training are not the same as drug procurement budgets. Remove Welsh from the equation and that money would not be magically transferred into a pot which you could then buy all the cancer treatments on the market. Your ‘concern’ is limited in scope and understanding, that is why it has not been addressed. You want to save the NHS money? Ban visitors for a start. Hospital infections, which have a clear cost implication, are managed far more effectively when family members are not allowed contact with patients. How does that sound to you? Are you in favour of that, or would that undermine choice and freedoms afforded to patients?

        • Meic Owen
        • August 30th, 2012

        “Meinwen” trots out that old chestnut – Welsh langauge or health, doctors and nurses, operations, cure for cancer etc etc. Let’s be clear, such illogical emotional blackmail only shows that she/he is against ANY investment in Welsh at all and would want to deny for example a patient who suffers from dementia or young child with learning disablities the choice of communicating in their first language. Let’s scrap all Welsh schools and bring back the Welsh Not eh meinwen, might save a pound or two there, at the cost of our beautiful language and rich culture? But who cares eh? Personally, if you want to save money how about scrapping Trident first, the WMD’s that we spend billions on each year which we will never use. Or cut the amount of money we spend on armed forces (3rd highest in the world). Or how about cutting subsidies to the Royals, that would save £45 million over night. As for gogwatch after a brief look at the vile and bigoted website I felt I had been swimming in the sewer, ych a fi.

      • Well put Meic, a healthy list of alternative options well worth trimming back on!

    • Meinwen
    • August 30th, 2012

    I don’t quite understand your argument about Trident etc., “Meic”. If we do not like the way our taxes are spent we have the opportunity to address that at the ballot box and choose to vote for a party that is more in line with our way of thinking.

    Unfortunately both you and “eyeonwales”, with your “language before everything” mentality means that moderate thinking Welsh people (many with Welsh as a second language) are discouraged from voting for Plaid Cymru. You are destroying this country with your continual harping back to the past (“Welsh not” is just one example) Investors want to see a vibrant, forward thinking country and you and your like are preventing this!

    I believe approximately 20% of Welsh people have Welsh as their first language and of course the Welsh language has its place in this society, but not to the exclusion of everything else we hold dear.

    I feel this blog is not prepared to host an honest and balanced debate. If your point of view is not totally accepted and we do not worship at the alter of the “Welsh Language God” – your remarks are either defensive or insulting. How professional!!

    I will not be checking your response as it is not possible to argue with ignorance.

    Third World Countries – Wait for Us!!!!

    • Our comments are either defensive or insulting eh? One can only wonder where an accusation of destroying the country fits into that brief then?

      Whether you check in or not again (we are confident that you will, the ‘shouters’ tend to), we would be interested to see where any argument is put forward for the language coming before everything. Indeed, if there was a coherent argument put forward that said ‘lives will be saved if we invest less in the Welsh language’, we would be inclined to say, okay, hard to reason with that. Yet that is not the scenario, if NHS spending on the Welsh language was reduced, it would be spent on training of another sort, it is not a transferable budget. The only thing that would happen with less investment in the Welsh language, would be further flattening of culture in Wales, making us a bland add on to the English economy, and certainly not an attractive investment option.

      Your argument seems to stand and fall on the NHS being better if the Welsh language was no longer around. It is a spurious, pointless and one eyed argument, worthy of nothing more than the derision you are receiving.

      As for ignorance, perhaps you want to review your own comments in the cold light of day, you may be disappointing to discover that the views you have expressed regarding the Welsh language, the NHS and the economics of Wales today, exhibit nothing but ignorance, but then, perhaps you are ignorant of the meaning of the word…it would not be a surprise.

    • Gwilym
    • September 22nd, 2012

    With some amusement and interest I have read the comments on this page, and posted at length on another forum about gogwatch.

    Meinwen has my sympathies. To dare to question the wisdom of current Welsh language promotion instantly brings rebuke on many forums. I have not posted on Gogwatch – yet – but the views there are diverse and the assertion that everyone writing on that sight is extreme or stupid is both erroneous and insulting.

    Yes, you will already deduce that I am not a big fan of Welsh language legislation… read my comments on another part of this site for that (http://eye-on-wales.com/2012/06/13/debate-on-gogwatch-a-response/). However, to draw the simplistic conclusion that I therefore hate Wales and its language is so wide of the mark to be laughable.

    For now I will just pick up on a couple of things that the much maligned Meinwen touched on. Cost of promotion and loss of talented individuals. There is absolutely no escaping that Welsh language promotion is costing significant sums of money that, arguably, could be spent on other things. One example, before I’m accused of generalisation – I work in post-16 education – a member of staff in our college is paid £40,000pa to promote Welsh in college. They are not employed specifically to teach it, but to promote, develop, etc. This is money from WAG and will be replicated in many colleges across Wales. The maths is simple – Welsh language promotion is costing a fortune in tax payers’ money whether we support it or not. Secondly, she is quite right about the potential loss of highly qualified people in many professions (not just health) who will be discouraged from bringing their abilities and talents here. This is also exacerbated by the unwritten rule of promoting Welsh language speakers above their English only counterparts – I think we are being hugely naive to think this isn’t happening.

    Yes, I expect my comments will draw criticism, abuse and ridicule, but at least I am willing to listen to other view points and shift my stance if the arguments are compelling. Insulting me won’t achieve that nor outright dismissal of my own opinion. Debate is good and healthy – but not simplistic mudslinging which only serves to entrench current positions.

    Dwy’n ddim yn siarad Cymraeg…. at least no more than tipyn bach. But dare suggest an English speaking Welsh person is less Welsh or to be treated as ‘second class Welsh’ or denied opportunities and I will challenge it vigorously. National identity is not so simply defined and the discussion of Welsh language is only part of the issue.

    • Hi Gwilym, regarding Meinwen and past strands of this debate, if that poster appeared to be ‘much maligned’ it is because many of the contributions from this person followed a similar path of recycled argument based on little substance. You tiptoed into similar territory yourself on the previous comment with your use of your child’s assessment of the enjoyment of Welsh language in their schooling experience, as some sort of grounds for national policy? A good point, reliant on spurious evidence becomes just that, spurious. You may well be on stronger grounds with your consideration of a Welsh promotional post. Certainly in times of austerity that would appear somewhat indulgent, but is that to say it should not happen at all? If you spinning things on the grounds of being reasonable and balanced, surely you would have to conclude that the answer to that question is no, it should happen, but perhaps in a more cost efficient manner. Yet, as with Meinwen, it seems to be an either or scenario for those critical, if it costs money we shouldn’t have it.

      In your core paragraph, there are two additional points on the loss of talent and promotion of Welsh speakers over non Welsh speakers. Now, here Gwilym is where we have a problem. You assert that people will be discouraged from working, and that Welsh speakers are promoted over others, and you base this on what exactly? Spurious evidence is one thing, no evidence at all is something else altogether. Were you cite Welsh medium school education as a field in which Welsh speakers were promoted you might be on to something, though of course, it would seem to make sense in that field no? As for the discouragement of talent, well, it’s an old and increasingly tired argument based on (again) no obvious evidence. Is there, for instance, a short fall in NHS practitioners in Wales? Yes. However, is there not an equal shortfall in NHS provision in England? Yes. How do we brush over that one Gwilym? Perhaps the problems in recruitment and the economy go a little deeper than Welsh language provision and devolved legislation – the problems in Wales remain as much a spin-off from the crises created in Westminster as any specific Welsh policy. We know many Gogwatch fans would delight if the situation was as simple as saying ‘cut devolution and the Welsh language’ and everything becomes rosy. Well, if you want to cite examples of people ‘being hugely naive’, you might look back on your own assertions regarding the potential impacts of Welsh language policy.

      No one here is suggesting that you hate Wales or the Welsh language Gwilym, but your arguments are as vacuous as those produced by people who do.

    • Dafydd Williams
    • September 23rd, 2012

    “But dare suggest an English speaking Welsh person is less Welsh” – If I may deconsruct this – that is a quite a common defensive response, often invoked to justify prejudices and hostile attitudes towards the language – all my life I have never heard any Welsh speaker express this myth, not one, so please name names Gwilym of those who have said this, I would very much like a chat with the said person/persons. And because you are an English speaking Welsh person does not mean you have be so intolerant of those who do speak it. Poll after poll show the majority of people of Wales support the the Welsh languge, just look at the incredible growth of Welsh medium schools, demand is outstripping supply all over the nation, with the present schools bursting at the seems, it seems Gwil bach it’s you that’s in the minority, and yes, may be news to you, but Welsh speakers pay taxes too.

    “or to be treated as ‘second class Welsh’ or denied opportunities” ah the old paranoia strikes again. Ironically though Gwilym it seems would be more than happy for those who speak Welsh to be treated as second class and discriminated against, let’s not forget which has been the case for the last 500 years in our own country. All i can say about the member of college staff whose job is to promote Welsh, with colleagues like Gwilym I really do feel sorry for the person, has his/her work cut out. Gwil basically doesn’t want to a penny spent on anything Welsh, sorry I cannot take anyone seriously who targets investing money in Welsh medium education but says absolutely nothing on the grotesque waste of money that is Trident, illegal wars, royals etc.

    To finish, scapegoating, of course, is one way in which individuals like Gwilym and groups like gogwatch try to paint a picture that society ill’s would be cured, Cymru would become a panacea of loveliness and togetherness, a land overlflowing the milk and mel, if only we’d lose our language and culture and save a quid or two, for such bashing and scapegoating a minority, in this case, killing two birds with one stroke, they would indeed make the the EDL proud.

    • Whistleblow3r
    • September 25th, 2012

    What a completely biased and one sided post. Gogwatch has done a great service to Wales by challenging the belief that Wales ought to have Cymraeg at any expense. “If Wales didn’t have Cymraeg it would be English” – Why? Americans speak English, Ozzys, Kiwis, Scots and Irish all speak English. Are Patagonians Welsh because they speak Cymraeg? I think not. It is exactly this form of fundamentalim that GW has challenged. Well done GW for bringing balance to a one sided debate.

    • ‘Biased and one sided’, thanks Whistleblow3r, that is indeed the best way to summarise the efforts of Gogwatch, when it was still around that is, we could not have described it better.

      Yes, we maintain that Wales without Welsh would just be an extension of England, it is an essential component of the cultural distinctiveness that marks Wales as unique. Your post would seem to advocate the complete loss of Welsh for, well, for no reason other than a bizarrely irrational notion that it is expensive. The game of what costs more would be a long one, and one you will lose many times over, but lets start with that monarchy for now…

      And just finally, on all of your case studies, none of those nations chose English as a dominant language, it was forced upon each and every one of them. But if you think that the enforced use of the English language over anything culturally distinctive is the way to go, then we would understand your love of the gogwatch.

      • Whistleblow3r
      • September 26th, 2012

      Evidence dear eow? Evidence? How was English forced on the pilgrims as they embarked on their journey to America? How was English forced on the colonists as they set up homes in NZ, Oz et al? You are wrong – English is the dominant language in those countries out of choice. You are busted!

      “Cymraeg at any expense” you have interpreted as financial not me.

      Monarchy – am I to assume you object to the head of our state? Unlike the majority of Welsh people.

      As for Cymraeg being fundamental to Wales may I draw your attention to the roots of the word Wales. Wales is a word derived to describe the foreigners living in the area now called Wales. Cymry is the name given to the people living there at the time and means comrade. So Cymraeg is integral to Cymru not to Wales. The words mean different things.

      It is clear there are two predominant cultures living in Wales. Perhaps you now recognise that fact as GW has opened your eyes to the fact that there are people who are Welsh and do not speak or want to be coerced to speak Cymraeg. And they are here to stay.

      Perhaps eow should rebrand to eye on cymru.

      • Okay, shall we take this one by one shall we…

        1. On evidence, if you want to use the phrase ‘busted’, you might want to reflect on how that word applies to yourself. In one fell swoop you have shown yourself to have a complete disregard for indigenous cultures, traditions and languages, though as a gogwatcher that does not in any way surprise.

        2. Expense interpreted as financial, well, yes, seeing as your point, such as it is, was so vacuous, the gaps needed to be filled in by someone. Your lack of detail is the weakness of your point, the interpretation provided is perfectly reasonable in the context of your rant.

        3. The majority? Based on what exactly, all those street parties was it? A few thousand people waving plastic flags? Well, if that is your definition of the majority, then you should have conceded that the Welsh language is the dominant language in this country, after all, a noisy visual presence seems to be enough evidence for you of fealty to a Queen, so lets transpose it to other subjects as well.

        4. Are you citing historical evidence there Whistleblow3r? Interesting how you can dismiss historical context on your first point, and then rely completely on it for another… As for your interpretation, it’s hard to know where to begin. It seems you are trying to create a scenario where there is Wales, and then there is Cymru. Are we considering two separate land masses here? Have you discovered a new island nation floating directly above the other? What a bizarre way to spin your point. You are pulling out a definition from over several hundred years ago and dropping it on today. Are you seriously trying to present an argument that everyone in ‘Cymru’ who calls themselves ‘Welsh’ today, are actually defining themselves as a foreigner? This sort of stapled together gibbering might hold weight on gogwatch, but not here Whistleblow3r.

        5. You can largely refer to point 4 on this one. However, what Gogwatch has done for many, is remind us that there is a noisy minority of individuals, who, for what can only be described as worryingly irrational reasons, detest the Welsh language. It is a shame Gogwatch appears to be defunct now and that we didn’t copy paste some of the savagery that was posted there regarding the language before it went down. Resentful, scared, aggressive, all attitudes on display by Gogwatch to a language. Nothing to recognise there apart from the fact that despite years of good progress by most in Wales, there are still some who would like nothing more to be rid of the cultural distinctiveness of the country. Thankfully they remain in the minority, how ever loudly they shout.

        6. Thanks for the suggestion, in the 21st century the word means the same thing (contrary to your fears) so we will consider it. Perhaps you might suggest to the owners of gogwatch that a more appropriate title would be hatemongeringcymruphobes, it would be far more representative.

        • Whistleblow3r
        • September 27th, 2012

        Oh I do enjoy a good giggle … How are you all at eow? With your ‘we’ this and ‘we’ that how many of you does it take to debate with little old Whistleblow3r? You must be preapring your responses on a shared google doc no doubt!! Just like the 7 yr olds I saw the other day!

        You will be pleased to learn that eow and gogwatch seem to have the same opinions as neither endorses purely Cymraeg medium education or the eradication of choice, how odd that you would make up stuff about another blog. But still you only have one eye.

        Choice in Carms is being removed. If you delve a little deeper to read the facts regarding the case you will learn that the parents in the Gwendraeth Valley want a cat 2B school where both streams are taught – a truly bilingual school. It is the LEA that wish to remove any form of English medium education from the valley. Strangley enough it seems that at the same time many businesses have packed up and left the area thus reducing the opportunities for those now destined to be able to speak two languages yet not able to work in either!

        How amusing and revealing that you would endorse the division in education by suggesting the ethnic cleasning of English speakers by educating them purely in Cymraeg, to improve standards! Surely a sane solution would be to provide an equitable education system, not one that favours one language over another. Fortunately the tide is turning and posters are rising up against this attitude.

        As for your assertion “most likely because the parents involved are progressive and see education through multiple languages as an asset” – this can be achieved just as well in an EM school and many students study a second language. Unfortunately many are limited to the language of choice because of the limitations placed on EM schools by having to deliver the wasteful Cymraeg langauge lessons.

        Your idea of progress is worrying and I do feel sorry for you. Progress seems to be related to speaking a language with a lexicon of about 100,000 words and no other use than in Wales and a small community in Patagonia. But if that floats your boat, knock yourself (yourselves lol) out.

        I should have learned by now that I shouldn’t feed the trolls but your little blog seemed so unintersting – bless.

        After all it appears eow stands for the following – am I right?

        “Why of course the people don’t want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of
        it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don’t want war neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to
        drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist
        dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no
        voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders.
        That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked,
        and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the
        country to danger. It works the same in any country.” Herman Goerign at the Nuremburg trials.

        Off you pop eow and share out a point each: pt1 for you and pt2 for you – the office must soooo busy constructing your collective responses…bless lol I can hear the tapping your your keyboard now

      • Hi again Whistleblow3r, busy times in New Zealand I take it. Apologies if you don’t enjoy the point by point comments, it is however necessary in responding to you, given your propensity for rambling off on half baked insults – a point by point approach introduces a touch of clarity to your rants.

        1. ‘We’ make no apology for responding as a collective. There are currently five individuals who maintain eyeonwales, each responsible for different elements, the twitter feed, photos, sports, politics and so on, but from time to time different people will comment on different subjects. Hope that clarifies for you, you do seem to be very excited about that issue.

        2. We advocate choice, however that is no way in agreement with gogwatch policy which makes no coherent case for choice. Gogwatch policy has been consistent in its argument for English provision everywhere, and Welsh where it is ‘wanted’ (a desire seemingly only determined by gogwatch), rather than the other way around. You are the only one suggesting that we would ‘ethnically cleanse’ the English language (well done for keeping things in perspective there by the way). Your own use of language however, dismissing Welsh as ‘wasteful’ is perhaps a clearer indication of your desire to ethnically cleanse that language, to coin your phrase?

        3. It is both entertaining and concerning if you do indeed work in the education field, that you would dismiss the strengths of multiple languages. Are you seriously suggesting that learning a language which might not be used commonly in other countries is simply a waste of time, with no educational benefits whatsoever? You might dismiss us as having a ‘one eyed’ approach to things, but better that than tightly shutting your eyes and covering your ears to education research which suggests the exact opposite of what you are spouting.

        4. Finally, it’s hard to be entirely sure what you are rambling on about with your Nazi quote, there is the old adage that a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing. You appear to have some quotations at hand, without having any real appreciation for historical context (lets hope you not a history teacher…). If you want to explore Nazi policy, perhaps draw your attention to those focused on language. In many occupied areas, Nazi policy concentrated on harsh and severe language regulation, with cultures forcibly adapted to a Germanic language based aesthetic, see Alsace for starters. Now, you will appreciate the historical comparisons with English education policy in a Welsh context within living memory (unless you have plumped for a complete head in the sand attitude to debate). EyeOnWales has never once advocated an entirely Welsh medium for Wales, we merely suggested that such an approach would mirror your own stated goals Whistleblow3r, it was essentially your idea based on standards. What we would advocate, and have done many times is access to choice. You and your fellow gogwatchers seems determined to prevent choice from being established in the first place, shouting down those Welsh medium schools that are created, even when English medium options are available within the coverage of free transport options. You advocate choice in the most superficial of terms, because you oppose the expansion of Welsh medium education in the first place, without which balanced choice will not be achieved in the first place. Your policy, based on the assertion that Welsh is wasteful, fits in perfectly with Nazi ideology, and yet, that does not surprise.

        We suggest you first consult some history textbooks rather than some wiki based Nazi quotes page, and then attempt to reengage with what is actually happening in Wales, your poorly constructed sideswipes from the other side of the world have a slightly desperate feel about them, we are certain you are missing your gogwatch commune of agreement.

        Once again Whistleblow3r, you are making this all too easy. Maybe take the time to consider your responses and engage with the debate, rather than banging the same drum. This is not gogwatch I’m afraid to inform you, just because you shout about the same thing over an again, does not in any way make you correct.

      • Whistleblow3r
      • September 26th, 2012

      Since you are so concerned about indigenous languages and cultures I am sure you would be in support of this policy …

      http://www.thisissouthwales.co.uk/discussions/Carmarthenshire-County-Council-want-eradicate-EM/discussion-13871749-detail/discussion.html?action=true&id=13871749&whiteLabelSite=#create-discussion-post-form-container

      Where a person’s choice is being removed to coerce children to learn only through the medium of Cymraeg. If you endorse such a policy you will not be surprised at the rise of a movement that objects to this coercion, after all is that what Cymdeithas campaign for.

      Therefore it is actually eow that endorses intolerance of other’s cultures not GW.

      As well you know many families in Wales chose to send their children to English medium education. The loss of Cymraeg was not the fault of the ‘English’ but the progressive Cymry that could see a brighter futire for their offspring.

      How odd that you would ridicule a ‘minority’ of Welsh people who have used ther 21st century skills to learn, unlearn and relearn the political landscape in Wales and see the new political ideology being enforced in Wales. Using their skills to challenge the medocrity of nationalism and the failure of self governance. One is not surprised that eow has only one point of view when possessing such a myopic stance, but then you only have one eye.

      Perhaps there is a link between the increased number of pupils attending WM education and the fall instandards of education across Wales, especially considering Leighton Andrews lowers standards to suit polical ideology.

        • Ricardo
        • September 26th, 2012

        OK ok Whistleblower, thanks for enlightening us Cymry. I feel so weak, yet you are so witty, wise and clever.

        Now that I’ve buttered you up a little, maybe you can tell me what happened to your buddy who writes all the Gogwatch articles? Has he fallen down a well? I kinda miss the Gogwatch zoo.

      • We miss it a little as well, though it is entertaining seeing ex-gogwatchers come here now, attempting to spin the same vitriol, but struggling without the hard core of the three voices that dominated gogwatch hounding out anyone with conflicting views. In a forum of debate, the gogwatch line really seems to fall on its face.

      • Right…so you provide an example of two schools, where teaching through the medium of Welsh already occurs, being merged into a single school where potentially slightly more, not exclusively though, teaching through the medium of Welsh would occur. In the same article appears to be a commitment to provide additional transport for parents who do wish to use alternative educational institutions. Given your case study example, it’s really quite difficult to figure out what on earth kind of point you are trying to make? If anything in your ‘loss of choice’ example, you provide examples of access to choice being enhanced…did you actually read your own article?

        From your initial paragraph, rather ironically your written English becomes increasingly unclear, but we’ll do our best with what you’ve written, again perhaps point by point to introduce some clarity to the rather broken English based argument that you have presented above.

        1. On intolerance: At no point do we advocate Welsh or English only education and encourage choice, thankfully the case study you provided gives ample evidence towards parental choice, though interestingly in the same article there is reference to parental groups wanting more Welsh education, but presumably you are not interested in respecting that particular culture, just the English speaking one yes?

        2. ‘As well you know’, there are many families who choose to send their children to Welsh medium schools, possibly because examination results from this field are outstripping those in English medium schools, most likely because the parents involved are progressive and see education through multiple languages as an asset that will lead to a brighter future for their children.

        3. The failure of self governance? You might want to expand on some examples, because whatever you want to consider Westminster as (presumably it’s self governance for the United Kingdom), would you call the management of Wales under that authority a success? Whip out the rose tinted specs on that one.

        4. A little research would show to you that standards in Welsh ME are outstripping English ME, perhaps a reason for increased demand. If your intention is argue for better standards of education in Wales, you would surely have to advocate rolling out Welsh ME across the entire country, and abandon the English ME which has been shown to not be fit for purpose, both in Wales and in England.

        Come on Whistleblow3r, this is fun an’ all, but you are making this all too easy.

      • Whistleblow3r
      • September 28th, 2012

      Duplicate post for you…

      Oh I do enjoy a good giggle … How are you all at eow? With your ‘we’ this and ‘we’ that how many of you does it take to debate with little old Whistleblow3r? You must be preapring your responses on a shared google doc no doubt!! Just like the 7 yr olds I saw the other day!

      You will be pleased to learn that eow and gogwatch seem to have the same opinions as neither endorses purely Cymraeg medium education or the eradication of choice, how odd that you would make up stuff about another blog. But still you only have one eye.

      Choice in Carms is being removed. If you delve a little deeper to read the facts regarding the case you will learn that the parents in the Gwendraeth Valley want a cat 2B school where both streams are taught – a truly bilingual school. It is the LEA that wish to remove any form of English medium education from the valley. Strangley enough it seems that at the same time many businesses have packed up and left the area thus reducing the opportunities for those now destined to be able to speak two languages yet not able to work in either!

      How amusing and revealing that you would endorse the division in education by suggesting the ethnic cleasning of English speakers by educating them purely in Cymraeg, to improve standards! Surely a sane solution would be to provide an equitable education system, not one that favours one language over another. Fortunately the tide is turning and posters are rising up against this attitude.

      As for your assertion “most likely because the parents involved are progressive and see education through multiple languages as an asset” – this can be achieved just as well in an EM school and many students study a second language. Unfortunately many are limited to the language of choice because of the limitations placed on EM schools by having to deliver the wasteful Cymraeg langauge lessons.

      Your idea of progress is worrying and I do feel sorry for you. Progress seems to be related to speaking a language with a lexicon of about 100,000 words and no other use than in Wales and a small community in Patagonia. But if that floats your boat, knock yourself (yourselves lol) out.

      I should have learned by now that I shouldn’t feed the trolls but your little blog seemed so unintersting – bless.

      After all it appears eow stands for the following – am I right?

      “Why of course the people don’t want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of
      it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don’t want war neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to
      drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist
      dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no
      voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders.
      That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked,
      and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the
      country to danger. It works the same in any country.” Herman Goerign at the Nuremburg trials.

      Off you pop eow and share out a point each: pt1 for you and pt2 for you – the office must soooo busy constructing your collective responses…bless lol I can hear the tapping your your keyboard now

      Oh I do enjoy a good giggle … How are you all at eow? With your ‘we’ this and ‘we’ that how many of you does it take to debate with little old Whistleblow3r? You must be preapring your responses on a shared google doc no doubt!! Just like the 7 yr olds I saw the other day!

      You will be pleased to learn that eow and gogwatch seem to have the same opinions as neither endorses purely Cymraeg medium education or the eradication of choice, how odd that you would make up stuff about another blog. But still you only have one eye.

      Choice in Carms is being removed. If you delve a little deeper to read the facts regarding the case you will learn that the parents in the Gwendraeth Valley want a cat 2B school where both streams are taught – a truly bilingual school. It is the LEA that wish to remove any form of English medium education from the valley. Strangley enough it seems that at the same time many businesses have packed up and left the area thus reducing the opportunities for those now destined to be able to speak two languages yet not able to work in either!

      How amusing and revealing that you would endorse the division in education by suggesting the ethnic cleasning of English speakers by educating them purely in Cymraeg, to improve standards! Surely a sane solution would be to provide an equitable education system, not one that favours one language over another. Fortunately the tide is turning and posters are rising up against this attitude.

      As for your assertion “most likely because the parents involved are progressive and see education through multiple languages as an asset” – this can be achieved just as well in an EM school and many students study a second language. Unfortunately many are limited to the language of choice because of the limitations placed on EM schools by having to deliver the wasteful Cymraeg langauge lessons.

      Your idea of progress is worrying and I do feel sorry for you. Progress seems to be related to speaking a language with a lexicon of about 100,000 words and no other use than in Wales and a small community in Patagonia. But if that floats your boat, knock yourself (yourselves lol) out.

      I should have learned by now that I shouldn’t feed the trolls but your little blog seemed so unintersting – bless.

      After all it appears eow stands for the following – am I right?

      “Why of course the people don’t want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of
      it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don’t want war neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to
      drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist
      dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no
      voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders.
      That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked,
      and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the
      country to danger. It works the same in any country.” Herman Goerign at the Nuremburg trials.

      Off you pop eow and share out a point each: pt1 for you and pt2 for you – the office must soooo busy constructing your collective responses…bless lol I can hear the tapping your your keyboard now

      • Interesting, so instead of engaging with the discussion, you’ve just gone for spamming instead, another example of the maturity of gogwatch debate, and you levy accusations of ‘troll’ at us…

        • Mathew
        • September 29th, 2012

        In light of what can only be described as Whistleblow3r’s semi-rational contributions, I have concluded that Gogwatch serves a very good purpose, akin to the sacrificial pot of jam at a picnic.

        • Whistleblow3r
        • September 30th, 2012

        Interesting – eow has nothing to contribute to the debate regarding the ethnic cleansing in the Gwendraeth Valley of Welsh people, nor is it able (with all of its members) to debate eloquently or with any form of progressive opinion the realities of Wales. A blog, where the owner (yes there is only one owner of eow), resorts to personal insults is quite simpy a troll masquerading as a commentator on Wales. Bless! Perhaps your children will see the error of your ways, as previous generations have done.

      • Can we just conclude that you have now simply run out of ideas Whistleblow3r and have resorted to simply trying to wind people up?

        Your point on the valley has been taken up, discussed and, unless you have anything substantial apart from simple rhetoric to fall back on, dismissed. If you recall, your own case study undermined the point you were trying to make. If there is any other evidence worth consideration in this debate, by all means, introduce it, but put simply Whistleblow3r, there is limited scope for a debate on ‘ethnic cleansing’ when there is none.

        As for insults, well Whistleblow3r you would really do well to go over your own comments. For Troll based behavior, you are aware that you have deliberately spammed this site yes? We quite happily left the evidence of that up for you to review (can’t imagine gogwatch would ever have been so accommodating). Really your activity here over the last few days is the definition of an internet troll. As for there being one owner, yep, we are not some investor based conglomerate, just a forum of people expressing opinions. Were you to take some time to explore the blog, you would see that there are several commentators covering a number of topics. One owner, several contributors. Your concern about site ownership seems as rational as complaining at a newspaper for having an editor.

        On debate, we have tried to make it nice and simple for you to engage by providing you point by point topics to engage with. This though has appeared to be too much for you, the fact you have not once engaged with a single response, only fallen back on your initial post, reveals your true intentions. However we continue to extend a welcome, you seem to need a platform beyond WalesOnLine for your voice to be heard, and given that Gogwatch appears to be in a terminal state of decline, feel free to do so here. Should you continue to post though, you might want to give some thought at least to your responses, because so far you are doing little if anything positive for your campaign.

        • Whistleblow3r
        • October 1st, 2012

        For the left brained we will address the OP and identify the prejudice that eow is exhibiting.

        “We were introduced this week to the political musings of Gogwatch, an online community who present themselves as having ‘been set up by a group of people who care passionately about Wales and the Welsh people’. Yet, they qualify their intentions by making clear that they ‘are opposed to how the Welsh language is being forced upon our nation as a matter of principle’. “

        If you (all 5 of the contributor to eow) oppose the forced use of English how can the forced use of Cymraeg be treated any differently by ‘you’ all?

        “Now, in such stated notions there is nothing inherently wrong you might think; free speech and all that. If you are concerned about the impacts of the forced application of the learning of the Welsh language then you would be standing by your beliefs by speaking out against it yes? Yet when working through the pages of this so called ‘voice of the silent majority’, there appears to be something far more sinister at work.”

        “Sinister” – based on what evidence, what do you define as sinister? I assume it is any opinion that contradicts the learned ideology of ‘One Wales’ failure. Is this the Herman Goering histrionics to which I have previously referred?

        “A selection of titles of Gogwatch blog entries offers a clear indication towards the intent of these people. ‘I come from Pembrokeshire – the Welsh language doesn’t belong here’, when you read this article the poster makes a clear point that Pembrokeshire has been anglicized for hundreds of years.”

        “‘Quest for “Welshness” is ruining our children’s education’,”
        Why is Welshness forced on teachers and pupils alike? Why does every subject need to contribute to curriculum Cymraeg? This is plain silly and is clearly having a detrimental effect on the quality of education being served up to Welsh children. The data doesn’t lie. Why is bilingualism such a wonderful panacea? There are so many other domains of learning that Welsh children should be able to excel in, but are denied the opportunity for numerous reasons; of which coerced Welsh language education is one.

        ‘Welsh education policy is serving nationalism ― not our children’, I am sure you would agree that a curriculum that demands all subject areas deliver an aspect of Welshness is serving no other purpose than indoctrinating children to believe in the strength of the Welsh nation.”
        I ask quite simply why? Why is the strength of the Welsh nation more important than a quality education? Why are children not given a choice? Why are children not free to follow their culture in Wales? Why is education monocultural when clearly there are predominantly two cultures living in Wales.

        ‘Don’t speak Welsh? That’s OK, we might discriminate against you!’ all public service employment forms ask the question what level of Welsh do you have? Why if not to discriminate after all job applications are a comparative processes.

        …and of course, ‘Dying for the Welsh language?’. The last title is particularly revealing, as Gogwatch attempt to paint a picture, where an emphasis on the support of the Welsh language, is the direct cause of cancer related deaths in Wales!
        “These are pages of fear, constructive scare mongering that would make cold war propaganda experts particularly proud.” Aha Herman Goering quote applies here; eow assuming GW is going to somehow attack the Cymry – truly sad

        “While the gibbering anger on display is a source of both concern and amusement, it is the volume of traffic that this savage little entry to the Welsh political blogosphere that should be particularly concerning.”

        Oh dear true colours on display – “gibbering anger” how so? You seem to understand them.

        “While the comments sections of the majority of blog entries include a balance of views and opinions, it is clear that the moderators are siphoning out the more vocal responses that oppose the words of the so called ‘silent majority’…interesting how a group can complain about not being heard, while clearly looking to control the voice of those they claim to control them.”

        This is quite simply a lie. You are running a campaign to undermine the integrity of another site based on what evidence?

        “Put simply, Gogwatch is not a forum for debate, it is a table upon which sits a royal crest, a rose of England, and a white flag of surrender, with serried ranks of the eager to pleasers, longing to suckle from the white elephant of English language, English culture and English control.”

        Now you have lost the plot. Just because there are Welsh people, not willing to endorse the coercion behind the Welsh language does not make them English – What “gibbering anger” and unsubstantiated rubbish.

        “Make no mistake about it Wales, Gogwatch is no friend of the Welsh language – they claim to be a friend of Wales and the Welsh people, yet their intentions are transparent to the extreme. Gogwatch is a friend of the Wales that is no longer Welsh.”

        Here we go the pursuit of something that is termed cognitive dissonance. You are Welsh but you don’t speak Cymraeg but unless you support Cymraeg you are not Welsh! What a load of rubbish and quite simply an insult to ALL Welsh people regardless of where they stand on the language.

        “That is not to say that you must speak Welsh to be Welsh, but a Wales without the Welsh language will no longer be Wales, put simply, it would be England.”

        More diatribe – as I have previously drawn your attention to the countries like Scotland, USA, OZ and NZ where English is the language of choice and they are NOT England. You insult all other English speaking nations in one fell swoop! Oh dear eowfail.

        “That is not to say that there is anything inherently wrong with England, but it is culturally distinct and unique from Wales, and the language plays an essential defining role in that distinction. A Wales without Welsh may as well abandon its rugby team, close down the Senedd (which of course Gogwatch would love to do), pull down the flag of the red dragon, place it in a box, then burnt and cast into the Celtic Sea, hoping that the charred remains might wash up upon the shores of Ireland, where someone across the water might recall their once having been a nation known as Wales.”

        More Herman Goering histrionics. If you do not support us you must be against us; you must be a traitor.

        Have you ever stopped to consider that Wales is evolving not devolving; that many people have quite simply tolerated the pursuit of a fair footing for Cymraeg for long enough, but now Cymraeg is enshrined in law there is absolutely no need to support its contrived causes?
        I am flattered that you have taken the trouble to find out so much about the little old Whistleblow3r. Rest assured the WB is here to stay; to hold you and many other so called ‘Welsh’ blogs to account, for perpetuating falsehoods in the name of nationalism.
        I sincerely expect you to retract your post regarding the lies you have written. However, please excuse me for not holding my breath. As for conclusions; it is clear for all to see that you draw conclusions from thin air, they are more akin to right brained conclusions; extremely creative. Perhaps you heed your own advice regarding the reading of history books; however the future of Wales is not in history books. The future of Wales is divided as it has been for some time. The future will come from the construction of a new Wales appreciative of all cultures not endorsing the coercion of one.

        Oh do try to refrain from your tiresome insults this time, but hey ho if that is all you have got, I won’t be at all surprised.

        Wales is bicultural not bilingual

      • 1326 words… one wonders where you find the time Whistleblow3r? Again, you have provided a rather clumsy response, quoting from our previous entries, while randomly mixing in quotes from other sources. You lack coherence in your approach, which seems to stem from what we can only presume to be a pretty irrational anger, but as with all your other responses, we will try and siphon out the points you are actually trying to make and provide you with a legible response.

        1. We do not oppose the forced use of English in schools, we oppose the lack of choice in schools, the very thing you have argued for. What we want is equal representation for the Welsh and English in schools, currently the field is overwhelmingly in favour of English language delivery. Try and find any quote where we say ‘Welsh language only’? You will be searching for a long time as such a thing does not exist.
        2. Sinister is based on the comments provided by the likes of ‘Scudder’ was it? This contributor, along with others, was quite clearly violently opposed to Welsh language culture. In addition, articles attempting to draw on twitter and television commentators as ‘proof’ as attitudes in Wales towards the language is incredibly sinister. Forget using statistical evidence when you have vox pops to present as the voice of the majority…
        3. On education, you are correct, data does not lie, and it points to pupils in Welsh medium education out performing those in English medium education. Why gogwatchers are so consistently blind to such research continues to amaze.
        4. On language and public services, well, we might as well skip over this one. You try and paint a picture where you can either be proud in a country, or educated. Then you try and paint a picture where the only reason to gauge Welsh language levels (usually completed on anonymous forms by the way) is to weed out English speakers, is riddled with such levels of paranoia to be laughable.
        5. On the comments section for gogwatch, we have contributors here who have had comments removed in the past, so it is far from a lie. You might note on gogwatch’s ‘about’ page a clear commitment to allowing any comment…so long as it did not contravene the owners own rules. Freedom to comment, but only to some extent.
        6. Yes, being anti Welsh language does not equate to being English, but for many gogwatchers the desire seems to be to undermine Welsh cultural distinctiveness to the extent that there would be no differentiation between Wales and England. They may not be English, but if gogwatchers had their way, it would be very hard to tell the difference.
        7. …well, we could go on, but we’ve answered everyone of these points about three times now, see previous comments to your regurgitated remarks.

        Perhaps here is the point to end on. Have you ever stopped to consider that Wales might be home to an increasing number of people who value the Welsh language? Have you ever stopped to consider that those voting in favour of parties with pro Welsh language policies is increasing on a year by year basis? Have you ever stopped to consider that the reason parents are fighting for Welsh medium schools, is that the results are positive, better than English medium? Have you stopped to consider that the increased flow of parents taking their children into Welsh medium education is based on demand, that there are in fact people in Wales, perhaps more than you would care to acknowledge who to favour the Welsh language, who want to be taught in it, who want to work through it, and want to live their lives through it?

        Just what is about the Welsh language having a fair 50:50 footing with the English language (drop the drama for a moment, it is not even close to a 50:50 footing in Wales yet) that you find so abhorrent? What is it about a Welsh population being able to speak in both Welsh and English that you find so disgusting? Seriously, where does all this fear come from Whistleblow3r?

        • Mathew
        • October 1st, 2012

        Forgive me for butting in eyeonwales, but I couldn’t resist!

        “If you (all 5 of the contributor to eow) oppose the forced use of English how can the forced use of Cymraeg be treated any differently by ‘you’ all?”

        While some job descriptions require the use of Welsh, no one is forced to use Welsh in Wales!…. However, people are forced to use English in Wales, like for example when using the self-service machines in ASDA when buying goods at their stores. Or when Jamie Bevan recieved a demand to pay court-ordered compensation in English, THREE times the Court Service refused to provide Welsh literature. Subsequently he was sentenced in court, in English for not paying the fine! Jailed for 35 days simply because the Court Service REFUSED HIS RIGHT to use the Welsh language. That’s one proveable, and one well documented instance where people are forced to use English in Wales!

        Before you start!…. Children are no more forced to use Welsh than they are forced to learn Maths or Geography! (of course you’ll now start saying that Welsh isn’t worth learning! – Make up your mind! Either Welsh speakers get all the jobs. i.e. Welsh IS worth learning, or they don’t and you simply do not understand the value of our language.)

        ““Sinister” – based on what evidence, what do you define as sinister? I assume it is any opinion that contradicts the learned ideology of ‘One Wales’ failure. Is this the Herman Goering histrionics to which I have previously referred?”

        Well sinister is a term I would agree with being used to describe gogwatch’s activities. The propaganda on the site smears ANY support for the Welsh language, anyone who supports it not to mention ALL Welsh speakers. The website’s intention is CLEAR! It directly supports and promotes a website called Glasnost.org.uk, which you will be well aware!

        Mentioning Herman Goering doesn’t really help, especially as Gogwatch and it’s cronies operate in a similar fashion to the Nazis. They attempt to BLAME EVERYTHING on the Welsh language and it’s speakers in the same way the Nazis did in order to construct a hatred of Jews, peddling lies and untruths to people who were succeptable of being misled! So YES! Sinister is one word you could use to describe Gogwatch and it’s intentions.

        “While the comments sections of the majority of blog entries include a balance of views and opinions, it is clear that the moderators are siphoning out the more vocal responses that oppose the words of the so called ‘silent majority’…interesting how a group can complain about not being heard, while clearly looking to control the voice of those they claim to control them.”

        “This is quite simply a lie. You are running a campaign to undermine the integrity of another site based on what evidence?”

        I am personally aware of someone who can prove without doubt that opposing comments have been removed from the site! I’d be careful what you wish for Whistleblower! If eyeonwales would like to view these examples, please feel free to contact me and I can put you in touch with someone who has evidence. Perhaps they may even be published on here?

        “Now you have lost the plot. Just because there are Welsh people, not willing to endorse the coercion behind the Welsh language does not make them English – What “gibbering anger” and unsubstantiated rubbish.”

        Well it certainly doesn’t go very far to consolidate their “Welshness” does it!

        “Here we go the pursuit of something that is termed cognitive dissonance. You are Welsh but you don’t speak Cymraeg but unless you support Cymraeg you are not Welsh! What a load of rubbish and quite simply an insult to ALL Welsh people regardless of where they stand on the language.”

        I fear you’ve applied the term cognitive dissonance incorrectly. In fact I would in turn suggest that anyone who believes they are patriotically Welsh that fails to see the value of the Welsh language to Wales certainly displays strong signs of possessing cognitive dissonance.

        “More diatribe – as I have previously drawn your attention to the countries like Scotland, USA, OZ and NZ where English is the language of choice and they are NOT England. You insult all other English speaking nations in one fell swoop! Oh dear eowfail.”

        I tend to think an Australia without aboriginal culture is a loss to the country and to the world, same for the Maori in New Zealand, and Native American culture in the US. I do believe a Wales without a Welsh language is a Wales without it’s heart. What that may mean in political terms regarding England is debateable, but I personally agree with the opinions expressed in the main article. When you look at Wales as Wales, you see how integral the Welsh language HAS been to the mere existence of Wales as a seperate coutry, even if it was treated as a county. Whether it will be in the future will yet to be seen. However, what we can deduce this comment of yours above, is that you CLEARLY do not understand how important the Welsh language is to Wales. I could understand someone having an objection to certain aspects of the language, perhaps based on cost or education etc, but underlining your personal objection seems to be a consistent rejection of the Welsh language at ALL levels. This is consistent with many a pro gogwatch comentee, which is why it’s arguments are often not based on facts, but it’s facts are instead based on the argument!

        “Have you ever stopped to consider that Wales is evolving not devolving; that many people have quite simply tolerated the pursuit of a fair footing for Cymraeg for long enough, but now Cymraeg is enshrined in law there is absolutely no need to support its contrived causes?”

        It sounds more like as soon as you realise there may be the actual prospect of “a fair footing for Cymraeg” you feel the need to destruct it’s progress. It seems to me that you feel you have something to FEAR from a Welsh language that has a TRULY EQUAL status with English in Wales? What might that be?

        “I am flattered that you have taken the trouble to find out so much about the little old Whistleblow3r. Rest assured the WB is here to stay; to hold you and many other so called ‘Welsh’ blogs to account, for perpetuating falsehoods in the name of nationalism.”

        “Perpetuating falsehoods”…. are YOU REAL?…… You’re attempting to defend gogwatch!

        “I sincerely expect you to retract your post regarding the lies you have written. However, please excuse me for not holding my breath. As for conclusions; it is clear for all to see that you draw conclusions from thin air, they are more akin to right brained conclusions; extremely creative. Perhaps you heed your own advice regarding the reading of history books; however the future of Wales is not in history books. The future of Wales is divided as it has been for some time. The future will come from the construction of a new Wales appreciative of all cultures not endorsing the coercion of one.”

        First of all Whistleblower I do have to admit that I agree with you one one thing, and I must commend you for implementing a small portion of sense. “the future of Wales is not in history books”, I could not agree more, but… ? “The future of Wales is divided as it has been for some time. The future will come from the construction of a new Wales appreciative of all cultures not endorsing the coercion of one.” You realise the Welsh language would be included under “all cultures” don’t you?

        Anyway, what lies do wish to be retracted from this site? Did Eyeonwales claim the future of Wales is actually in history books?

        “Oh do try to refrain from your tiresome insults this time, but hey ho if that is all you have got, I won’t be at all surprised.”

        I’d try and take your own advice on that one.

        “Wales is bicultural not bilingual”

        Yes… OK…. but what do these two cultures embody? What would you say defines them? An induviduals tastes in cheese?…. Music?….. or the unthinkable…… Not language?…. but that would surely make Wales bilingual!

      • By all means, jump in there, be interested to see if your well developed response generates a rational return?

        • Whistleblow3r
        • October 9th, 2012

        It is very simple eow – you are wrong.
        Wrong on your assertions regarding WM education being better than EM education as your dependnace on data is unrelaibale. Since you are so well informed I am sure you have read the data comparing EM schools with WM schools presented by Gogledd. More people on FSM in EM schools.

        Since EM schools are doing so badly ( as you claim) why are parties continuing to promote Cymraeg at the expense of EM core values? Why is it mandatory for children to learn Cymraeg up until the age of 16 when clearly their time would be better spent learning their core content?

        Fear – once again you have fallen into the trap, an opposing view is not fear. Why would I be fearful? It appears you are revealing your true colours. I do not fear the Welsh language yet in reading your post you fear opposing opinions as un-patriotic. I once again point out the similarities you have with Herman Goering’s speech.
        50:50 footing for Welsh and English. Why?
        Not everyone speaks Cymraeg.
        Not everyone wants to speak Cymraeg.
        Not everyone sees the need to provide resources for everyone in two languages.
        Since the Welsh language is mandatory in schools, public services and enjoys the protection of a gestapo styled commisioner I know that the mood and support for its use is dwindling.

        All the Whisltleblower is doing is asking the questions that party drones and the “politically correct” do not want asked.

        As for cognitive dissonance – I do believe you have had the chance to read up a little on the topic.

        I am Welsh but I do not speak Welsh, so I teach the children Welsh, but you do not have to speak Welsh to be Welsh! It is that simple.

        The simple answer is to use the correct vocabulary. Welsh and Cymry and by doing so you see clearly that Wales is divided.

        On your party policies – none of the parties openly campaign on their attitudes to coercing children to learn cymraeg.

        I do wonder what possible gain there is for eow to rubbish another website which also does not want to eradcate the Welsh language with such an untruthful post. I think your lies have caught up with you.

      • Ah, so, this one is back. While you are welcome to post as often as you like, there are only so many times that your recycled argument can be thrown about. Your questions have been dealt with repeatedly above, so please just refer to the many responses you have there and cut-paste where appropriate for your own copy-paste comments.

        As for the specific paragraph your are referring to, you will surely notice that you have once again avoided the question put to you. Yes, fear is certainly mentioned, but it is a fair question to levy in your direction because you have offered no rationale response to dislike of the Welsh language status. Where rationale response is found to be lacking, it can only be concluded that the emotional is leading the argument. Let’s look at your at your response for instance. You oppose a 50:50 status for the Welsh language because a. not everyone speaks Welsh, b. not everyone wants to speak it and c. not everyone sees a need for it. Basically, you are not in favour of the Welsh language, as you claim, being ‘forced’ on people, yet you would seemingly only accept a pro language policy where, what exactly, 100% of the population agree with the language? ‘Everyone’ Whistleblow3r claims, ‘everyone’. One wonders where you would draw the line. On what other policies would you demand that ‘everyone’ agree before taking action?

        So in this scenario, what about those in Wales who do not just speak in English, who do not want to only speak in English and who do see the point in language provision? Does your ‘everyone’ model include them? You might claim that support for the language is dwindling, of course you provide no evidence, yet we know from Assembly and independent surveys that support for the language is increasing (you seem to insist that we take your word on your evidence, so, we’ll go to the effort of pulling out the reports when you do, however, even in New Zealand you would be hard pressed to deny that, however deeply you are burying your head in the sand), demand for WM is increasing and use of the language is increasing, where do those opinion fit into your argument? You talk at such length about what you presumably think is fair, yet you would enforce a legislative system that refuses these people their opportunities, their rights…but then, do you even think of it as a right? Based on your opinions above, probably not. Well, that’s not entirely fair, if you are an English speaker, then, in your model, it is your right to be taught in that medium, just not if you are a Welsh speaker – that’s the general theme of your argument yes Whistleblow3r?

        • Whistleblow3r
        • October 9th, 2012

        Fascinating response eow. Fascinating. You seem to know sooooo much about what I think without even bothering to articulate the facts you so dearly love. Yet the opinion you have posted on this site is a lie a blatant lie and whilst you attack all that would dare challenge your myopic view your OP is a lie.
        No getting away from it.
        You posted it and no amount of pre supposing what I think or what the intentions of my posts are.
        No matter how much you recycle your 50:50 argument when it is statistically flawed
        No matter how many traps you fall into resorting to insults.

        You have lied, unless ofcourse you believe that those that speak Cymraeg are more Welsh than those that do not.

        Now that we have that in the open we can address the cognitive dissonance that seemingly you would endorse.

        In eow’s model is it OK to not want to speak Cymraeg and still be Welsh?

      • You want evidence for demand is it? Fine, start with this report from Newport City Council: http://www.newport.gov.uk/stellent/groups/public/documents/report/cont537730.pdf Tell me how your majority rule works here eh? Evidence of majority (over 50% demand) for Welsh medium education facilities. In a sense you could suggest that the data here is arguing for something more akin to 60:40 in favour of Welsh ME provision. The evidence is far more plentiful than this Whistleblow3r, but seeing as you have failed to bring anything at all to the table, we will make do with having brought something.

        We are not lying, we are, as we always have done, are basing our views on evidence, what people in Wales, even non-traditional Welsh speaking areas like Newport, are saying, ney, asking for. Do you understand this Whistleblow3r? You might not understand this in New Zealand, but people in Wales are ASKING FOR Welsh ME. Gogwatch and its followers would love to dismiss this point, but in doing so they fail to represent the views of the very same majority that they claim to support.

        As for your final question, we have had this discussion already, and reached a consensus, we can only presume you keep going back to this vacuous point as you have little to contribute to the actual debate at hand.

        Again, let’s give you your same question again, seeing as you are such a fan of going back to the same point over and over, just where do Welsh speakers and those wanting Welsh ME, who appear to be in the majority, fit into your model for Wales?

        • Whistleblow3r
        • October 9th, 2012

        Newport statistics – is that really the best you can do?
        That’s 4 mentions of New Zealand??

        Cognitive dissonance can explain your increased statistics, but you don’t know what that is. Yet once again you have failed to answer the question.

        Is it OK to not want to learn Cymraeg and still be Welsh? After all “we” are in the minority in your opinion of Wales – who will now fight to defend the minority or will you just seek to expunge that culture from Wales?

        As for your lies – they are there in your OP for all to see. You can edit, cut and paste or delete them at your leisure.

      • Yawn, this is getting boring now. Unsurprisingly, you are presented evidence and you reject it, never saw that response coming. It’s not the best we can do, but it illustrates our point, which frankly, is more than you have done for any of your points. You ask for evidence, you have it, contradict it with some evidence or just concede, for all the substance of your argument you might as well be howling at the moon at the moment.

        Your 1950s social theories could certainly explain the statistics, equally, people actually valuing the Welsh language and its benefits could also explain it, though you have clearly decided what everyone thinks for them. It’s entertaining really that you seem to find it impossible to accept a scenario where people in Wales actually want to have access to the Welsh language, why is that so hard for you?

        You are the only person talking about expunging culture, we are quite clearly arguing for equal representation. It’s interesting that you try and spin that line though, you are now fighting for the hypothetical equal representation of a minority English speaking culture in Wales, yet you appear resolutely opposed to equal representation for a minority Welsh speaking culture in Wales. In an attempt to discredit our argument, you trip over your own broken logic and simply serve to undermine your own, really we should just copy paste all your responses together one day, it would make for one of the most illogical developments of an argument seen for some time.

      • As for all these accusations of ‘lies’, would you care to substantiate on any of these examples? We have asked you if our interpretation of your comment was correct, is that what you are talking about? In which case there is no lie to be found, merely a question, which you have avoided answering. Does that imply that our interpretation is correct? Again, not that this a question, not a statement of fact…

        • Whistleblow3r
        • October 11th, 2012

        In arguing for equal representation you clearly undermine the opinions of many posters on another blog for doing just the same thing – seeking equal and uncoerced opportunities! How remarkable that you denigrate another site whilst attempting to promote equality.

        You make too many assumptions about me to support your tired and inaccurate arguments. You have not debated a topic, all you have done is promote one side, in the belief that you are right. I think it’s called propaganda.

        EM schools have been achieveing better results than WM schools for some considerable time

        http://www.walesonline.co.uk/business-in-wales/business-news/2012/10/07/lack-of-engineering-and-sciences-graduates-holding-back-welsh-economy-shows-research-from-wales-quality-centre-91466-31983717/.

        The BBC needed to change their website to reflect as much and this week two EM schools have been used as exemplars in an Amercian publication for improvement of results.

        WM education is choice and it is right that it is a choice, however parents are not being given the true facts upon which to base their decisions, infact they have been lied to. What is wrong is the coercion of Cymraeg on individuals who have no need for it.

        Your blog is spreading lies – example “Gogwatch is not a forum for debate, it is a table upon which sits a royal crest, a rose of England, and a white flag of surrender, with serried ranks of the eager to pleasers, longing to suckle from the white elephant of English language, English culture and English control.”

        It is clear that you have no interest in engaging serious debate on this matter and you are happy to leave your head(s) buried in the sand as the world moves on. You have used selective data and have not presented a balanced article. Infact you have gone out of your way to ensure any form of balance is treated with contempt.

        As for 1950s social theory; at least its more modern that 19th Century nationalism.

        I once again ask the very simple question – Is it OK to not want to learn Cymraeg and still be Welsh?

      • No, gogwatch was perpetually arguing against the expansion of WM expansion, thereby preventing any sort of equality being established in the first place. How you can keep ignoring that fact is baffling.

        Your source on WM failings appears to have no tangible link to WM education at all, so well done on that one, keeping it relevant as always.

        Alas with gogwatch in a fairly terminal state we can’t pull up some of the comments which illustrated the communities seething hatred for Wales, but should the little site ever come back from the grave, we’ll make sure to paste up some of the choice comments from the sites contributions. For now you’ll have to take our word, as you ask us to do for your views on the sites theme. However it would appear that more here would agree with our interpretation of the sites intentions than yours.

        You return to 19th century nationalism as a model for criticism, yet you clearly have no understanding of Welsh nationalist politics in the 21st century, the two do not begin to compare, but you have no intention of learning about contemporary Welsh politics, relying instead on firing off snide poorly informed remarks from afar. Stop relying on critically outdated and outmoded methods of interpretation. Oh, thanks by the way for acknowledging that your 1950s theories are indeed outdated, very good of you.

        We have answered your question about five times now, of course it is okay. Now how about you answer the question, is it okay for people in Wales to have the opportunity to learn Welsh in Wales? Will you answer we wonder or will you continue to cite barely relevant walesonline articles in response to questions not asked…

        • Whistleblow3r
        • October 11th, 2012

        The next lie or is this libellous?

        “Gogwatch has a single clear unstated goal – the execution of the Wales language.”

      • Again, as soon as the site relaunches, if ever, it will be more than easy to substantiate that particular claim…only too easy.

        • Mathew
        • October 12th, 2012

        “Is it OK to not want to learn Cymraeg and still be Welsh?”

        Yeah that’s fine, as long as you don’t start complaining that you’re being discriminated against for not being able to speak Welsh when you apply for a job that requires a Welsh speaker!

        but you may want to begin questioning the need for jobs requiring Welsh speakers? (in line with general gogwatch policy)

        “We have had the Welsh Language Act 1993 imposed on us demanding equality between Welsh and English. It has imposed Welsh language schemes on the public sector and large utilities.

        We have public sector jobs advertised requiring that the candidates speak Welsh, thereby discriminating against the 88% of people in Wales who do not speak Welsh or who are not fluent in Welsh.”

        Taken from: Wake up Wales! It is time for the majority to speak out

        OwainG | February 27, 2012

        So, in your opinion is it OK to want to speak Welsh in Wales?

    • Rhys
    • September 28th, 2012

    Ceri :
    Wel Larry, dyma ni unwaith eto…….2nd bostio!
    Rwy’n byw mewn ardal sy’n siarad Saesneg fel y gallaf weld y ddau safbwynt. Rwy’n teimlo bod lle i ddwy iaith yng Nghymru! Yr wyf yn meddwl fy mod yn iawn, ydych chi’n meddwl eich bod yn iawn felly rydym ni yn amlwg yn mynd i gytuno.
    Mae’r ysbyty mwyaf yng Nghymru mewn angen dybryd o ymgynghorwyr ac ati., rydym hefyd angen buddsoddiadau o’r tu allan ac i ddenu busnes i Gymru. Fi jyst yn teimlo y dylem ni fod yn annog hannog i beidio hyn. Yn gam neu’n gymwys, mae pobl yn dechrau teimlo bod apartheid iaith yng Nghymru. Ni all hyn yn helpu’r economi!
    Rwy’n gwybod na fyddwch yn cytuno a mi, ond, ac mae hyn yn bwysig, gennyf hawl i gael fy safbwynt…….fel wyt ti!
    Larry – bydd rhaid i ni gytuno i anghytuno!
    “eyeonwales” – Athrod! – Sue fi!

    Er gwybodaeth, cynnyrch GoogleTransale ydy hwn.

    e.e teipiwch: I live in an English speaking area so I can see both views

    Roedd rhaid i fi fynd i GoogleTranslate yn gyntaf i wybod beth ydy ystyr ‘Athrod’!

    I’m not for one moment suggestng that someone who doesnt’ speak has any less of a right to hold views about Welsh language promotion or whatever, it speaks volumes about the person that he/she make false claims to actually speak Welsh in an attempt to somehow give more weight to his/her argument.

    • Ha, yes, remember thinking that at time of the original post. There are some who are so agenda led, it is in some respects admirable how far they will go to argue their points…even if it reveals the posters to be quite desperate at the same time.

    • M Owen
    • October 1st, 2012

    Is there a way to disable “Whistleblower” (gogwatch/Protic) increasingly bizarre, half-baked, paranoid rants on this page? Not only is he extremely boring, facile and lack any evidence whatsoever, he also comes across as an intolerant hateful extremist with a HUGE chip on his shoulder against Welsh society spewing his anti Welsh language bigotry. I almost feel sorry for him.

    • We know, we know, and troll feeding is something we shouldn’t encourage, but we also figure, we’ve got a gogwatcher dropping in now, perhaps this is an opportunity to educate. Failing that, we have the bizzare rantings of (what we think is) a man who illustrates just what gogwatch is/was all about. His postings alone highlight everything that we found so troubling about the site originally.

      Yet, we also feel a fair bit of pity for him, it must be a very sad life to feel such anger and resentment to something that is proving so positive in Wales. Hate is a powerful motivator, and their is plenty on display there.

    • Gerry
    • October 8th, 2012

    Just curious – Why do you always think that anyone who has a different point of view is a “gogwatcher”? I am sure there must be people who agree with you and people who do not – that is just the way it is.

    • We don’t always assume that, however we know that many of the pro-gogwatch comments made here are done so by individuals who have matching profiles on gogwatch (or had, when it was running).

        • Whistleblow3r
        • October 9th, 2012

        Awww bless eow, can’t debate so you have been reduced to insults. Still your posts reveal alot about your site’s intentions. Bless!

      • Care to elaborate on how anything in that response is insulting?

    • Tom
    • October 20th, 2012

    Whistleblow3r – Did you really think you would find impartiality on this site? They cannot accept that there are Welsh people who do not speak Welsh. They hate the English language yet continue to post in that hated medium. Strange!!

    I suppose I am now going to be called a “Gogwatcher” and I have never even visited that blog/site

    • Hi Tom, thanks for the comment. Perhaps you could take some time to work through the other posts though, you would then note that we have stated quite clearly that you do not have to speak Welsh to be Welsh. In terms of the English language, we do not hate it as a language, what we hate is it’s negative impacts on cultural diversity. We have already covered in the past why we post in English, and much of that has to do with the lack of school based opportunities to learn the language when many of the contributors here were growing up – a direct impact of the lack of choice currently being fought for.

        • Whistleblow3r
        • November 10th, 2012

        Working through your original post you compare speaking English to being English, are you now taking back your original statement, or do you accept it is wrong?

      • No, we did not make that comparison. We stressed that Wales without the language would essentially be England, stripped of our cultural distinctiveness, there would be no differentiation. But you have already illustrated that you care little for cultural distinctiveness, preferring instead a cultural flattening in the name of economics.

        • Whistleblow3r
        • November 10th, 2012

        Oh dear it appears attack is your only form of defence. You are unable to defend your original post. You claim that Cymraeg gives the whole of Wales it’s cultural distinctiveness, yet Cymraeg only represents a small section of the population. You reject the idea of biculturalism and endorse the proliferation of Cymraeg in the whole of Wales, thus rejecting the use of English language out of an irrational fear of becoming English. You are entitled to your opinion, I, however disagree with your opinion. You do not represent Wales, you represent your opinion. Frankly, I am not surprised that you are so intolerant.

        • Meical Owen
        • November 10th, 2012

        Whistleblower, eyeonwales above states “you would then note that we have stated quite clearly that you do not have to speak Welsh to be Welsh”, that’s pretty clear to most people even to you. I am proud of the language its part of us which makes us distinctive from every other nation on earth, its the cultural jewel and should be cherished, whether you speak it or not, that’s something to be proud of. And I am extremely proud of our Welsh medium schools, they are absolutely brilliant schools, with demand outstripping supply all over Wales, we are a bilingual nation – get over it.

        Your comments which are both astonishingly boring and disrespectful, just demonstrate your ignorance and your unpleasent bigotry – I very really use that word, but every posting of yours reeks with intolerence, bitterness, spitefullness, and narrow minded irrational antipathy to our shared language and culture. But its comforting to know that every poll on the issue shows vast majority supports the language, whether they speak it or not, you’re in a tiny minority. Your pathological hatred of the the Welsh language and on wider scale Welshness is clear for everyone to see. As for that nut website gogwatch which main purpose was to personally attack Welsh speakers was just a sewer. As for accusing others of intolerance – ha ha now that is funny. The Nick Griffin would be proud of some of the things you’ve said here. And as I said you come across as a sad individual. You’ve been left behind. Maybe that’s what’s bothering you. I actually feel sorry for you.

        If you don’t wish to have anything to do with Welsh, don’t. The difference between us Whistleblower, is that I will call you bonkers here, or to your face. Whereas you hide behind anonymous internet troll names and websites and snide insinuations. I don’t usually speak out unless provoked by bilious comments like this. There’s nothing totalitarian in me speaking out against you and your pre-historic views. We all know you would be far more comfortable living in another age and can’t come to terms with the fact that we live in a society which gives equal rights to people like me who speak Welsh as my first language and choose to use Welsh in my daily life with family and friends. Tough. Deal with it.

      • That’s for the comment, we are in agreement ;)

      • And where exactly do we say Welsh ONLY education? What you will find is we argue for EQUAL representation of the language. Try reading the posts would you. We fully appreciate that you are here purely to rake mud Whistlebow3r and that’s fine, you want to bring more traffic to the site, by all means do so, but you could at least try to engage with the debate rather than persist in ignoring the detail of the responses provided to you.

      • Whistleblow3r
      • November 10th, 2012

      Tom you are right there is only impartiality from other posters, eow only has one objective with regard to the proliferation of Cymraeg, and it appears all of this at the expense of the English language.

      The OP indicates perfectly their intolerant stance.

      • Er, what now? Your core tenant is that Welsh language provision should be stripped back, in favour of a more ‘useful’ language. You consistently reject the notion of bilingual education – your manifesto is the proliferation of English over the Welsh language. That you can try and produce a counter argument against this post with such logic (such as it is) is laughable.

        (We notice as well that you are back Whistleblow3r, guess you still need the platform given the continued absence of your beloved gogwatch.)

        • Whistleblow3r
        • November 10th, 2012

        I have no manifesto, core tenant or desire for the return of gogwatch. I am free to hold my own opinion and express it wherever I choose (unlike eow). However, one’s freedom to express challenging opinions clearly upsets the tender minds at eow. Bless!

      • Your point is kindof shot down by the fact that we encourage comments from both sides of the argument. If we were at any stage upset by you Whistleblow3r we could remove your comments and block your ISP. However, we are not gogwatch and quite like opposing views ;)

    • Julie
    • November 6th, 2012

    So why don’t those contributors learn the language now? They could use your site to gain experience in conversing in their chosen language. Or is it just another case of the martyr complex that, unfortunately, is found so often in Wales?

    • You miss the point, many contributors have learnt the language, merely in its spoken form – have this conversation face to face and it would be perfectly possibly through the medium of Welsh. In this case it is writing in Welsh that is challenging. Don’t worry though, all are trying – we just wish we had the chance in school rather than having to chase opportunities in later life.

        • Whistleblow3r
        • November 10th, 2012

        Lol – seemingly eow blames inadequate education for the inability to siarad Cymraeg, there was me thinking you are free to learn what ever you want if you are prepared to pay for it.

      • So, education for only those who can afford it then. Why are we not surprised that such a policy would come from you Whistleblow3r?

        • Whistleblow3r
        • November 10th, 2012

        There is no such thing as a free lunch eow! Education is not free. It is paid for out of taxation as well you know. Resources in Welsh education are being badly managed and inefficiently used. Freeing up education by opening it up to the market would allow parents to choose a pathway for their children. But eow does not support freedom.

      • And we come back around to your assertion on waste, management and inefficiencies. You’ve said this all before and when challenged, have failed to provide any evidence to corroborate it. When you challenged us to provide evidence to the contrary, we did…we are still waiting on you.

  10. My God, can’t believe the amount of hate being spouted on this blog!

    First off, I am a first-language Welsh speaker who has live in Wales all his life and has come out of both primary and secondary education through the medium of Welsh. At no point in my education did I ever experience any damage to my understanding of English-language culture, literature, history or any other aspect. If anything, my knowledge of another language enhanced and enriched my experience of it, being able to see everything from more than one perspective.

    As such, it’s extremely puzzling and worrying to me that people like Whistleblow3r seem to hold the view that Welsh-medium education isn’t worth the investment – as someone who has had recent experience of it, trust me, it is.

    Secondly, I turn in first-language Welsh circles, among many staunch Plaid Cymru supporters, Cymdeithas yr Iaith activists and ex-representatives of the Welsh Language Board. I can honestly say that I have NEVER in my life come across a Welsh-speaker with an elitist or superior attitude, with any kind of complex regarding non-Welsh speakers. If anything, I’ve found that it’s the other way around, with people often fearing or being suspicious of Welsh.

    I can also attest to the personal ridicule I have endured as a ‘Welshie’, having insisted on speaking Welsh in a Welsh-medium school when others didn’t bother. The fact that Gogwatch seems to peddle the argument that it is non-Welsh speakers who suffer abuse in Welsh-medium schools is absolutely ridiculous. It is entirely the other way, and this is talking from personal experience.

    Finally, if parents feel that Welsh-medium education is damaging their children’s wellbeing so much, then why send them there in the first place? Surely it is their responsibility as parents to provide education to their child in a manner which is agreeable to their child’s needs?

    The Welsh language isn’t being ‘forced’ on anyone, it is simply reviving after many years of dormancy, and almost everyone I’ve ever spoken to on the matter have been supportive and appreciative of the positive influence of the Welsh language on Wales today.

      • Whistleblow3r
      • December 13th, 2012

      Dear boy the recent census proves the ‘silent majority’ were correct. Coercing the language through schools has reduced the number of people willing or able to speak Cymraeg.

      As for WM v EM schooling. EM schooling is forced to deliver Cymraeg through all subjects. WM schooling is not.

      Open your “eyes”, not just the one eye focussed on “Wales”, the Welsh language is being forced on children on a daily basis. It is a waste of time, money and effort.

      • Ah, nothing quiet like a generalized snap shot of a census summary. You would no doubt care to abandon the teaching of the English language as well Whistleblow3r given it’s clear decline in usage in the same census report yes? Note that the census report does not question people over their competence in speaking English in the way that Welsh speakers were quizzed, had the same question been asked for English, we may have actually found far fewer English speakers than are currently indicated – let’s get it on the chopping block then, after all, ‘the silent majority’ can surely support no other action given their attitudes to the use of language education in Wales. Given that the English language is clearly in a state of decline, it must be concluded that it is a waste of time, money and effort to maintain.

        As for your views on WM/EM, you are back in your ‘making things up’ corner. Don’t worry though, your friends at BiLingo are experts in this field, do send your ‘facts’ to them.

      • I’m sorry, you lost me when you referred to me as ‘boy’. You’re obviously incapable of debating students without being patronizing, and yet you’re the one clinging to your ignorant, childish fears about a non-existent ‘threat’ to your identity. To be honest, I barely even understood your flawed logic enough to follow your point to the end.

        The recent census proves very little – official figures show that the 2001 census recorded an increase of 80,000 in the number of people who spoke welsh. Now it is down 20,000. That is still 60,000 more than there were in 1991. Thus the claim that the language is facing a ‘crisis’ or that people are ‘turning against it’ is complete rubbish,

        In addition, the census also show the overall population of wales has increased to its highest levels yet, which is bound to increase the percentage of Welsh speakers – in layman’s terms, we simply have a smaller slice of a bigger cake, with little or no effect on the actual number of Welsh speakers, as explained above.

        Attention should also be given to the fact that the question has been changed from ‘Can you speak Welsh?’ to ‘Do you speak Welsh?’ Granted, not a large difference but enough to impact the small change we’re talking about.

        One simple point – WM education being forced to deliver subjects through Welsh? Isn’t that why it’s called ‘Welsh-medium’ eduction, because all the subjects are taught through Welsh anyway?? You seem to be vomiting up any kind of useless twaddle you can think of to support your flawed and ridiculous argument.

        As for EM education being forced to deliver subjects through the medium of Welsh – what planet are you living on? Many of my co-students have gone to English-medium schools throughout Wales, including Ceredigion, Cardiff and the valleys, and not a single one has said a word about Welsh being ‘forced’ on them. The only compulsory example of Welsh being taught is as a second-language subject up to GCSE level, after which pupils are free to drop it whenever they please.

        ‘Open your “eyes”, not just the one eye focused on Wales’ Oh, I’m sorry, I thought this whole issue was about the Welsh language in Wales? Forgive me if I focus on Wales…while talking about Wales.

        As for it being a ‘waste of time and money’ who the hell do you think you are to tell me that my language, an integral part of who I am, is a waste? How dare you think you somehow have the right to fling such absolute bigoted filth in my direction?

        Before you start harping on about how the Welsh-speakers are out to get you, and how we’re asking for more than our fair share of funding, attention in education etc etc, let me give you a little reality check – English and Welsh are now legally of equal status in Wales, so whether you like it or not, you have no legal basis to challenge the right of my language to funding and support, something which your language will never need. You happen to have the luxury of a flourishing language, something I may never have. English has been ‘forced’ on me every single day since the day I was born, and will be until the day I die. I will never be able to ‘drop’ English. It is an impossibility for me to choose to only speak Welsh for the rest of my life. Think about that the next time you start blowing figures out of all proportion to suit your laughable claims.

        • Whistleblow3r
        • December 14th, 2012

        Oh dear someone seems to have gotten out of bed on the wrong side this morning! You raise an interesting point regarding the question, can you speak to do you speak. Perhaps there are some people who can speak Welsh but choose not to because Cymraeg represents coercion and oppression.

        You mentioned the equivalence of Cymraeg and English – there is no such thing. Unless I missed the English language act passed by Westminster which institutes an English language commissioner in Wales.

        Wales is made up of more than just the Cymry, but you seem to have overlooked that small but important fact. Not every Welsh person is Cymry. Not every Welsh person wants to speak Cymraeg. Once again a simple truth that is ignored.

        But hey ho.. these statistics will give the fanatics ammunition for “the cause”. Now what was it that Einstein said: “INSANITY: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result”. More coercion will result in less success, just like the silent majority said it would. “To every action there is an equal and opposite reaction” – Newton. You keep pushing and you will inevitably see people push back.

        As for making stuff up – I’ll leave that to your “side”, you all seem so good at it.

        Lastly, your attitude clearly demonstrates your lack of tolerance and ingrained fear of assimilation. As for your ability to debate, when you have that ability drop me a line. Until then I will ignore your insults and statistical analyses in favour of the facts. The number of people who choose to speak Cymraeg has fallen over the last 10 years. During that period coercion increased, funds spent on the proliferation of Cymraeg increased, the Welsh language board published inaccurate figures and lied to its people, the BBC made claims about the effects of WM education that have subsequently been removed. Thousands of children forced to attend Cymraeg lessons in EM schools do not even sit an exam in it.

        The policies you support are failing. You are failing the people of “Wales”.

      • This is hilarious! You accuse me of rudeness and insulting you and your opening line is ‘someone seems to have gotten out of bed on the wrong side this morning’

        The EQUALITY of Welsh and English – and yes there is. Sorry to utterly destroy your pathetic attempt to renounce my claim, but the truth is that you do not have a legal right to challenge the legitimacy of the Welsh language as one of the official languages of a bilingual Wales. The link provided is a legal document from the Welsh Language act of 2010:on the official website of the assembly. Here you will find several legal documents relating to the act and all of its effects and measures:

        http://www.assemblywales.org/bus-home/bus-legislation/bus-leg-measures/business-legislation-measures-wl.htm

        It’s there in black and white, for all to see, ratified by law, passed by the Welsh Government and approved by royal consent, so don’t bother trying to deny it, or you’ll simply look like even more of a fool than you already do.

        ‘Cymry’ simply means ‘the Welsh’. If you don’t like or even understand the tiniest bit of Welsh, please on’t use it. After all, its you who seems to have a problem with the language, not me.

        As for whether people want to speak Welsh or not, that’s their choice, but what you’re proposing simply attacks the Welsh language and deprives many people of that choice. No-one is forcing people to go through Welsh-medium education after all. If the parents don’t like it, the answer is very simple – don’t send your child to a Welsh medium school if you don’t like Welsh-medium education.

        I have provided you with accurate and reliable figures drawn from the BBC (regarding the census) I have now provided you with accurate and reliable figures from the Welsh Government. What other kind of evidence do you need? Put simply, you don’t like what the figures are telling you, so you reject them as false. I note that you have yet to produce ANY reliable statistics or evidence of your own, just a couple of quotes which you have bent to your own purpose.

        As for you last paragraph…I’m sorry, what?

        A desire to live my life speaking my own language without fear of persecution or ridicule is equivalent to fear of assimilation? Oh, right, we should have let the Nazis take over after the Second World War then, shouldn’t we? After all, if ‘assimilation’ is progress, then there’s no problem with that, right? Oh, I know, let’s MAKE the entire EU speak German – they are, after all, the dominant economic force. And if they don’t like it, then they’re fanatics and should be stopped. That’s your logic in this situation, and I renounce it. It’s nothing less than fascism and bigotry, and should be fought.

        Yes, but as I have explained above, that is no surprise – look at the bigger picture involving the 1991 census and the changes that have happened in Wales regarding population etc etc (I’m not going through the same argument again, its all up there^^^) then your argument that the people of Wales are ‘rejecting Welsh’ doesn’t hold water at all.

        ‘Coercion’ as you put it, is non-existent, except in the minds of fools like you who have a chip on their shoulder about the language, simply because it is something you don’t understand. Thus, you fear it, and will do anything in your power to ‘stop the fanatics’. Your panicking like a child, stamping your feet and refusing to see the facts when they’re staring you in the face, simply because you’re not getting your own way.

        Another little personal anecdote for you, just to show that most of the ‘silent majority’ don’t support you. I have a friend, a girl from Casnewydd (Newport to you) who has no family history of Welsh-speaking, no encouragement to speak Welsh, did not go to a Welsh-medium school, and yet she is doing a degree in Welsh at uni. This is entirely through the medium of Welsh, despite the fact that she is a learner. You see, she’s taken the positive view about all of this, which is: If you can’t understand Welsh, why not learn Welsh?

        I’m being serious here. Excluding our debate, excluding our political views, why don’t you try and learn Welsh? Why not learn the language, get to know us all, and then tell me that we’re all fanatics and bastards who want to take over the world. Why not be positive about it? Instead of seeing us as enemies, why not try and make us your friends? Surely it wouldn’t be that bad to learn Welsh?

    • David
    • January 28th, 2013

    I work in the voluntary sector, I can speak Welsh but the area I live and work in is predominantly English speaking. I have to order all my leaflets in both English and Welsh. I have boxes of the Welsh leaflets in my office but frequently have to re-order the English ones. The fact that there is a choice of language is widely advertised around the different venues I have to visit. It is explained in notices on my office walls etc., and I ask people which language they would prefer leaflets in. In the past six months no-one has chosen the Welsh option.

    • David – That’s a pity, I understand it must seem like a waste when no-one is using the Welsh-language resources available. This varies from region to region for mostly historical reasons (English influence or immigration which has changed the culture over time). However, you are to be absolutely commended for your effort in accommodating Welsh speakers. You sound like a good example for anyone who provides a service or runs a business in Wales, and I hope that you’ll carry on providing the same standard of service to anyone who chooses to use it in Welsh. After all, its a fundamental human right to be allowed to communicate and to have access to resources and services through your own chosen language – thanks, and please keep up the good work!

        • Whistleblow3r
        • January 30th, 2013

        Is it also a fundamental human right to receive English medium education in an English medium school free from the coercion of the iaith Cymraeg?

        • Whistleblow3r
        • January 30th, 2013

        It never fails to amaze me that “historical influences” conveniently over shadow choice. It is also sad that you do not accept that people choose not to use Cymraeg resources because they prefer the versatility and transferability of conducting their lives through the medium of the English language.

        Still, onwards we will go, as we reject the imposition of Cymraeg.

        • B Griffiths
        • January 30th, 2013

        I agree 100% with Osian. If you think whistlebowr that historical influences have had no effect on the language situation in Wales then you’re a bigger idiot than I thought you were. Welsh language in a historical/social context has not been given an offical platform until fairly recently, it will take time to correct that and make people more confident in using it officailly. As to your tedious rubbish attacking Welsh medium education, please name one child who leaves Welsh schools that is not fluent in both languages? There is not one child one which leaves Welsh medium education who is not fluent in both our languages. The same certainly cannot be said for English medium eduction in Wales, which turn out kids still unable to communicate bilingually – a damning indictment of our education system.

        Nobody is forced to learn anything. Its never ceases to amaze me that bigots like yourself are so narrow minded and blinkered to accept there is nothing wrong with our children learning more than one language – Welsh and English (and others too) its called diversity. You’re obviously against small languages, so is it surival of the fittest? Is that what you believe? Only the strong survive and the weak die. Very sinister whistleblower.

        69% of the world population can speak more than one language, children in Denmark, Sweden, Holland etc are fluent in several languages when they leave school. So what’s the big deal?? What you have is an irrational hatred, a xenophobic mistrust of Welsh speakers, its pathetic and sad in equal measure. I find it more pitiful than anything else that an idiot like you spend so much time attack something as everyday as someone’s language. And it’s easy to say these things hiding behind anonymous names and websites – very brave (!), hoping some people as ignorant and bigoted as yourself will swallow your malacious claptrap. But guess what, Welsh will outlive me and you and will be around for a very long time again, hwyl fawr!

    • Ann
    • January 30th, 2013

    I have to say that I think some children do not take to languages easily. My nephew was educated through the medium of Welsh, he found it very difficult and left school without any qualifications. After leaving school he went on to study through evening classes etc., eventually going to university where he finally obtained an Honours degree and is now lecturing at that same university. His sister sailed through her education (welsh medium) and is now teaching Welsh in a large comprehensive. Neither my brother or his wife were welsh speaking. I think, as with many other subjects, some children take to some things and not others.

  11. I see old Whistleblower is back. Two easy points, let’s see if we can finally get you to understand.

    A: Its not coercion, there is no law saying that you have to send your child to Welsh-medium school. If you don’t like it, opt out. Simple choice. It’s called ‘Welsh-medium education’…well, because it’s through the medium of Welsh, believe it or not. If you don’t like the sound of that, that’s your personal choice. I personally think that having two languages rather than one (as the provided statistics show, this is far more likely to be the situation of Welsh-medium students than English-medium ones – thank you B Griffiths), but if you don’t like the sound of it, whatever, it’s your life. Just don’t send your kids there, and don’t expect any sympathy from realists about your bigoted views on the Welsh language.

    B: Every child in Wales will be fluent in English by the time they leave school anyway, due to the massive influence of the English language on Welsh and global culture – don’t downplay it, English is a huge, powerful language which forces other, smaller languages out.They don’t have the ‘choice’ because of those exact same historical influences you’re so keen to reject. If you are Welsh and speak English, you’d do well to recognize these, as they are the reason why you can speak this language in the first place. Forgive us if we seem keen to preserve some sense of belonging and identity which you’ve obviously lost and rejected, we just don’t like the idea of extinction, believe it or not.

    Welsh speakers are finally having their freedom. For the first time, people are encouraged and allowed to speak Welsh in school and in their social lives with relative ease, without as much fear of ridicule as before. The language, one of the oldest in Europe, is finally getting the status, rights and equal treatment it deserves, as are its speakers. I currently have a waiting list of acquaintances who are eager to begin Welsh lessons with me, some of whom have no history of Welsh or even a Welsh background.

    Don’t you understand? Your imperialistic bigotry and hate is completely outdated. You’re a dinosaur, an old relic reminiscient of the infamous hateful propaganda spouted by the likes of Neil Kinnock in the late 70′s. You need to start living in this tolerant, culturally vivid Wales that is finally starting to emerge in the 21st century.

    By the way, I’ll pose the question to you monoglots again – why don’t you just learn Welsh? Ok, so maybe you don’t have the time. But if you’re so morbidly interested in the language, why not actually learn it? See what it does for you.

    B Griffiths – Thanks very much for your support, much appreciated – diolch yn fawr.

    Ann – I understand where you’re coming from. Unfortunately, I think it springs from an deeper issue – the failings of the uk education system to cater to bilingualism. Welsh-medium education doesn’t currently vary that much from English-medium education in structure, so at present its difficult for many second-language Welsh speakers to pick it up quickly due to the lack of educational material and extra-curricular support available. Having said that, I know many who have succeeded (for instance, its usually helpful for the parent to try and learn some Welsh too, so that they can practice some of the more complicated stuff a home). However, you’re right, I’m sure it varies from individual to individual. Welsh isn’t easy to learn, but if learned properly it’s a beautiful, vibrant language full of possibilities.

    Cymru am Byth, pawb.

  12. By the way, Whistleblower, don’t bother trying to use Welsh. It sounds ugly coming from someone who doesn’t understand anything about it.

      • Whistleblow3r
      • January 31st, 2013

      Oh the zealots and language fanatics are out in force (all two of them). You’re attempts at arguments are so boring that it’s funny. Moreover the level of bile you direct at my opinion illustrates perfectly your utter ignorance of the issues.

      Facts – English medium education is compelled to deliver Cymraeg. It is law. It is coercion it is wasteful.

      Fact – less people speak Cymraeg now than they did 10 years ago after 10 years and more of coercion in English medium schools in Wales.

      Fact – people want a choice in English medium schools and they are denied this choice. Just as Ann says some people take to languages others do not.

      Fact – you are losing public opinion, as those who wish to be bilingual are learning other languages.

      Fact – you can take a horse to water but you can not make him drink.

      Fact – the educational model adopted in Wales has led to the lowest levels of achievement in the UK.

      Fact you don’t need to speak Cymraeg to be Welsh.

      Fact the little old WB3 is not alone, or extinct as demonstrated on the Wales on line pages.

      Funny bits
      Osian in a previous post requests I learn Welsh, when I use Cymraeg correctly he accuses me of being ugly. Aim, foot and shoot methinks Osian!

      Osian fails to recognise the coercion in EM schools. Lol.

      Historical influences blamed for progress and choice.

      • If I’m a fanatic, what does that make you? My belief is that the preservation of the identity and culture of a sizeable minority in their own country is a valuable thing. I don’t want confrontation over it, but you seem determined to attack everything I am, my very identity, time and time again.

        Right, lets scrutinize these ‘facts’ of yours.

        ‘English medium schools are compelled to deliver Cymraeg. It is coercion, it is wasteful’. Yes, they are compelled to teach it as a secondary language, much like French or German, up to GCSE level. After that, its the pupils choice whether they want to continue with it. It;s not coercion at all – it’s an opportunity to learn a second language, which is never a bad thing. And how exactly is teaching Welsh to children any more ‘wasteful’ than teaching them any other language? By your logic, you seem to think that since English is dominant and by far the most useful language in the world, what’s the point of learning any language? Also, many schools are forced to deliver RE as a compulsory subject. I’m personally for this, but I can see why many atheists would find that ‘wasteful’. I don’t see you making any comment on any other compulsory subjects, so I assume you’re merely attacking something you fear and don’t understand, as ususal.

        ‘Less people speak Cymraeg than 10 years ago’. I assume you’re referring to the latest census results? I’m tired of explaining why those results are what they are, but I’ll do it again for your benefit. The results show a drop of 20,000 Welsh speakers since 2001, but an increase of 60,000 since 1991. Looking at the bigger picture, there are now 60,000 more Welsh speakers in Wales than there were 20 years ago. The census also claims a 2% drop in the number of Welsh speakers, There are a number of reasons for this. First, the actual drop which is mentioned above. Second, a population increase of over 30%, the largest in recent history, with a large proportion of those immigrants from outside of Wales (and therefore with no presumable knowledge of Welsh). Third, the question was changed from ‘can you speak Welsh’ to ‘do you speak Welsh’ for the recent census, which may account for some second-language speakers who aren’t confident in their Welsh to tick the ‘No’ box. Not a sgnificant number, granted, but when you’re talking only a few thousands difference on a 2% scale, it must be considered. So all in all, people aren’t ‘rejecting’ the language at all. You don’t just forget how to speak a language or choose to ignore the fact that you speak it. We simply have a natural drop-off, caused by deaths or immigration, and a smaller slice of a bigger cake in terms of population. Another ‘fact’ busted.

        ‘people want a choice in English medium schools and they are denied this choice. Just as Ann says some people take to languages others do not’ I agree that people want a choice, and I’m sure some find learning Welsh difficult. But the same could be said for any other Modern Language taught in any school in Wales – why are you directing that at Welsh, when linguistic capability covers all languages, not just the one you seem determined to destroy? By the way, Welsh isn’t taught at primary level in many schools, so you’re talking about 5 years in total, up to GCSE level. Not so wasteful when you consider that all Welsh-medium primary and secondary schools are compelled to deliver English lessons from the age of 7. If I were as anti-English as you are anti-Welsh, I would have ‘chosen’ not to learn English at that age, but I’m capable of seeing the benefits of having two languages in this modern, globalized world, something you seem not to accept.

        ‘you are losing public opinion’. I’m sorry, do you speak for the people of wales now? Last I saw, gogwatch was being rapidly re-vamped due to outcry over its slanderous and offensive views on the Welsh language. How many hits does BiLingo have these days, I wonder? I live in Cardiff, and I don’t see people taking to the streets and storming the Senedd, demanding they end the protective legislature around Welsh. Somehow, I very much doubt that public opinion is backing a bunch of maginalistic colonials like yourself, people aren’t that stupid. Although people say that the BNP is gaining momentum again – perhaps you’d like to write to Mr Griffin about your plight? I’m sure he’d be happy to accommodate the likes of you.

        ‘you can take a horse to water but you cannot make him drink’. Oh god, are you really resorting to using old sayings to try and make your case watertight now? Please, spare us. We’ve provided you with accurate, reliable information, sources, links to other websites proving our claims, and what do you do? Hit us with some old wives’ logic. I can see that’s working out well for you.

        ‘the educational model adopted in Wales has led to the lowest levels of achievement in the UK’ Finally, a point which isn’t filled with so much anti-Welsh hate. Although again, I’m afraid you lack the bigger picture. The Welsh education model delivers those results because it is still tied to the academically-orientated, ‘no man gets left behind’ model used by the rest of the UK, which is entirely incompatible with the demands of Welsh education (yes, including the teaching of Welsh, before you pounce on it again). People don’t get stupider, its always the system that’s to blame, and in this case a total re-vamp and overhaul is required in order to make it work. Labour are incapable of delivering that right now because they barely have a majority in the Senedd. Ergo, our results keep getting worse.

        ‘you don’t need to speak Cymraeg to be Welsh.’ I’ve never claimed anything to the contrary. I don’t consider myself ‘more Welsh’ than anyone else, just because I can speak the language. However, I do think you have to question yourself when you attack the language of your country, the language which your ancestors probably spoke, which has existed in Wales for far longer than English has. Attacking the Welsh language is always anti-Welsh. Maybe you don’t want to speak it, and again, that’s your choice, but don’t attempt to destroy what is one of the last living Celtic languages in the world, simply because you don’t understand it.

        Right, who or what is WB3? If its an anti-Welsh movement, I daresay it’s not, judging by the racist bigotry spewed up on the Wales Online pages daily. If it’s you, then again, I’m sure you’re not, but that doesn’t make you right. Just means there i more than one bigot in Wales, something which every Welsh speaker has always known. It’s funny how you have to justify yourself, and assert you’re not the only one who thinks the way you do all the time. If you truly had the amount of public support that you claim to have, I doubt very much you’d have brought it up at all.

        On to the ‘funny bits’. A post which you never responded to, conveniently enough. You still haven’t answered it why don’t you actually learn Welsh? As for it sounding ugly, it always will sound ugly coming from the half-educated mouths of bigots like yourself. Cywilydd arnat ti am feiddio ceisio defnyddio fy iaith yn fy erbyn (cue Google translate).

        I fail to recognise it because it doesn’t exist. You’re living in a fantasy world, a little bubble of hate which distorts your view on everything. You’re a sad excuse for a fascist bigot, hiding behind fake names and websites and anonymous claims, making up your own ‘facts’ to suit your own warped logic.

        Historical influences which indeed did take precedent over choice in the past – see the anti-Glyndwr measures taken against the Welsh, Brad y Llyfrau Gleision, the ‘Welsh NOT’. You see, Welsh was actively discouraged and stamped out in the past. No such pain is being inflicted on English speakers, thank God. You always have a choice, you just don’t like the fact that we finally have one as well.

        Please entertain us further with some more of your fantastical stories about the nasty Welsh speakers, and how you simply don’t want, don’t want, don’t want.

        Tan y tro nesaf.

    • Whistleblow3r
    • January 31st, 2013

    Once again you have revealed your ignorance of the issues. Cymraeg is compulsory in all EM schools protected in law. It is unlike any other language so your puerile attempts to normalise this coercion are laughable.

    When you accept this coercion, then you may be worth debating with.

  13. And once again, you show the holes in your bigoted argument by ignoring all my other points, purely because you don’t like the idea of Welsh gaining equal status through legal protection, something which it desperately needs.

    When you reject your narrow-minded colonialism, then perhaps you may be worth debating with.

    By the way, if you’re refusing to ‘debate’ any further, I’m sure many readers of this blog will be breathing a sigh of relief.

    Gwynt teg ar dy ol di, chwib-chwythwr (swnio fel dy fod di’n chwythu ‘chwib’ o fath arbennig, os wyt ti’n fy neall i).

    • llan
    • February 1st, 2013

    this article has missed a few points. gogwatch isnt just anti the welsh language, gogwatch is anti anything that might make wales any different from england. 6 ukip voters and a laptop.

    • Hi there, Ilan.

      Yup, that pretty much sums up Gogwatch – some even think it might just be the one guy behind all three organisations – the same one who also fabricated the complaints of ‘concerned Ceredigon parents’ regarding the Welsh language.

      There seems to be nothing much left to contradict this. Who knows, it might even be our friendly neighbourhood ‘whistleblower’.

      Yes, Gogwatch is apparently ‘taking a break’ for now (ie, it’s been shut down because whoever formed it is afraid of further scrutiny) as are BiLingo and Glasnost.

      Basically, now that the press has gotten wind of them, they’re not so keen to reveal their controversial, bigoted views on the Welsh Language due to fears of public outcry or threats of legal action.

      I agree, its something deeper than simply hating the language, its more like an irrational fear of the new Welsh identity which has finally found its feet in recent years.

        • llan
        • February 5th, 2013

        but that can only be a good thing; first they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win. gogwatch is just proof that we’re half way there. got to love the names they choose though, whistleblow3r, fearless defender of the man on the street! sounds a lot better than smallmindedbig0t.

        • Whistleblow3r
        • February 5th, 2013

        Cool – the Whistleblow3r’s opinion has them on the run trading denigrations as they begin to accept their infamy.

    • llan
    • February 1st, 2013

    i cant find gogwatch anymore. wheres it gone? and bilingo and glasnost are just shells.

  14. Totally agree, Ilan. Only a matter of time before the Welsh language is universally accepted as an integral, positive aspect of the Welsh identity. The die-hard Welsh-haters, still living in the 70s, will have to accept that or simply exist on the fringes of a tolerant, modern society as sour, small-minded bigots spitting hate into their earl grey tea.

    I thought you were done debating, whistleblow3r? Back for more, I see.

    Pob hwyl Ilan.

      • Whistleblow3r
      • February 11th, 2013

      Awww, bless! Osian is missing the little old WB3! Still it’s lovely reading your incessant insults which only serve to prove the intolerance exhibited by such “educated” fanatics.

      “It’s only a matter of time …” – excuse me if I don’t hold my breath. You have a Welsh language law because you are unable to win the popular argument… still it’s nice to dream. You have a commissar to promote the lingo. You have a TV and a Radio channel dedicated to Cymraeg. You have coerced language lessons in EM schools up to the age of 16. You have an ineffective ‘democratic’ assembly.

      Yet with all this political support the number of Welsh speakers has fallen in the last 10 years.

      Symtomatic of a language policy failure I would say wouldn’t you?

      God bless!

      nil carborundum illegitimi – now did the Romans introduce the dragon to this land I wonder?

      • Ah, ‘chwib-chwythwr’, I miss you in the way that I miss having the Bill on television – mildly entertaining, yet offering no intellectual stimulation.

        If you find the word ‘bigot’ insulting, maybe you should stop exhibiting bigoted logic.

        If we were truly such a minority inflicting such a huge burden on the non-Welsh speaking majority simply by existing, I very much doubt those would be in place.

        I’m not going to have the ‘coercion’ argument with you again, because you’re just recycling the same old flawed, tired arguments every time. Change the record, it’s getting boring for anyone with half a brain cell. If people don’t want those things for the Welsh language, why is there no popular protest?

        You only have to look at the ‘massive’ (ahem) influence of Gogwatch and BiLingo to understand that it is only a marginal, colonially-minded faction of bigots who have any problem with the way Welsh is being given some status.

        …and risen in the past 20 years. Not seeing the bigger picture shows that you are either pointedly ignoring the facts to support your prejudiced views, or that you’re simply retarded. Or both, for that matter, since bigotry often stems from ignorance.

        Symptomatic of a thriving interest in a minority language, I’d say. Let me know when the ‘oppressed masses’ of non-Welsh speakers storm the elitist Senedd, will you? I’ll be sure to bring along a few BNP members to help you out.

        I’ll retort you with ‘Veritas vos liberabit’. Anyway, it’s ‘Illegitimi non carborundum’ – learn some Latin grammar.

        • B Griffiths
        • February 12th, 2013

        Da iawn Osian, well said. The mind of a bigot like “chwib-chwythwr” is like the pupil of the eye: The more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.

    • Whistleblow3r
    • February 13th, 2013

    If it makes you happy to lose your cool and call me names then fling insults all day every day. I never tire of reducing you to your basic instinct. Your language policy is doing more harm than good. Your belief in the Herman Goering philosophy of bringing the people to war by telling them they are under attack is humorous but pathetic. Carry on with your coercive policies and supporting the lingo. You are doing no one any favours least of all your own side! It is highly amusing to watch.

    As for bigotry … Remove the log from your own “eye” before …

    The world will pass you by…

      • B Griffiths
      • February 13th, 2013

      Herman Goering philosophy?! Haaaaaaaaaaa haaaaaàaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!! I’ve seen it all know. No wonder you’re hiding behind a pathetic pseudonym – anybody with a brain cell would be so embarrassed putting a real name, such as J.Protic for example, to such insane, paranoid, pure crap.

      I’ve read some idiotic things on the web but vongrats you’ve taken 1st prize. I suspect others like myself reading this actually pity you. But sadly a zealot like yourself is blind to ur own hatred, bigotry, intolerance and rank stupidity. Whatever happened to bilingo “claims”? Oh yes, i remember now – nothing! Cymru a’r Gymraeg am byth! Hwyl fawr love!

    • It’s not an insult, it’s a fact. If you don’t like it, learn some tolerance and respect for the Welsh language and Welsh speakers. Otherwise, be prepared for people to disagree strongly with your colonial views.

      Our language policy does what it’s supposed to do – protect and preserve the Welsh language, nothing more. You’ve made it abundantly clear that you’re opposed to this, yet I still fail to see how it affects you in any way. No-one’s taken away the English correspondence, education, service, or advertising away, and yet you resent that they also exist in Welsh.

      Since I’ve started debating you, I’ve given you nothing but facts (albeit aggressively put at times, as I am naturally eager to defend my identity). You’ve done nothing but recycle tired old unproven arguments time after time. If anything, you’re the one who’s been reduced to his basic instinct from the start, and that instinct is to hate the Welsh language.

      Well, if you find being proven wrong time again amusing, then I’m sure you’re having a whale of a time.

      Bigotry is a hatred of a certain culture, ethnic group, language, identity or religion. I don’t hate non-Welsh speakers, but I do find haters of the Welsh language to be, at best, prejudiced, irritating and half-educated. Which pretty much sums you up so far.

      Well, if it passes the tolerant majority of Welsh people by, then you will barely register as a tiny blip.

        • Whistleblow3r
        • February 14th, 2013

        Fabulous post Osian, more of the same and it is lovely to read your persistence, you make soooooo many assumptions of the little old WB3 which is nice. But as you pedal the same old diatribe and abuse you fail to win a paper doily.

        Cymraeg is compulsory in EM schools – children are coerced to study the language.

        Language policy has failed to protect anything as numbers volunteering to use Cymraeg fall.

        Two painfully clear facts to all.

        Please keep your failing policies alive, oh and please keep the abuse and assumptions coming it is so funny reading your pathetic bully boy tactics.

    • llan
    • February 13th, 2013

    Waw! Let me check that i have got this right, it’s taken me a while to figure it out! WB3 is shorthand for Whistleblow3r? Whistleblow3r is now talking about himself in the third person? He must be very important. And very cool, steeped in youth culture. Numbers instead of letters and now a cool shorthand version! Like a graffiti tag. Big up!!

      • Whistleblow3r
      • February 14th, 2013

      Thank you parish boy

    • Gwen
    • February 14th, 2013

    I honestly worry about this country sometimes! If the Welsh speakers want to speak welsh, that’s fine with me. If the English speakrs want to speak english, that’s fine with me also. Can we please have a little more give and take? We all have to live together and this bickering helps no-one!!!

      • Whistleblow3r
      • February 16th, 2013

      I agree Gwen and since the majority of people in EM schools do not want to be forced to go to Welsh lessons I would expect a tolerant democratically elected government to accept that. Clearly they are not a democratic party and they do not support the people’s preference.

        • B Griffiths
        • February 16th, 2013

        Agree with you Gwen, I would honestly worry about this country if the intolerant, bigoted and unacceptable view of WBlower were the majority view, but thankfully every party supports bilingualism and our children’s education. It seems WBlower is on his own, no, my mistake the BNP share his opinion. ‘Nuff said.

        • Whistleblow3r
        • February 17th, 2013

        Statistics dear BG, statistics. You have shown your true colours and fallen foul of the Herman Goering philosophy once again.

        You find it difficult to deal with genuine objections to language policy and you must have a tangible foe to sling your arrows at. You do not see what is under your nose. Your sheer ignorance is your down fall.

        Please keep up your intolerance you are doing more harm than good.

  15. Wow, I see our resident troll has been busy in the past few days. Time to muck out the cage, as usual.

    Whistleblow3r – ‘Cymraeg is compulsory in EM schools – children are coerced to study the language.’ Yes, Welsh is taught in English-Medium schools because they are in Wales. Teaching the native tongue to children is only ever a positive thing, as it not only gives them the use of another language (something which is painfully rare in Britain nowadays) but fosters a positive, tolerant attitude toward the indigenous, unique culture of Wales. Coercion has nothing to do with it – the fact is that most people accept that learning Welsh in school is a positive thing.

    There have been no protests, there have been no negative reactions (apart from the ravings of some nutter setting up things like ‘BiLingo’ and getting a few hundred hits on the internet). If the people of Wales were to organize a popular protest against this so-called ‘coercion’, which was wholly representative of the public opinion, then so be it. Democratic will must always come first.

    But that’s exactly the point, it’s not the view of the majority at all, only the bigoted opinion of a tiny minority. Incidentally, Id be happy for the Senedd to conduct a referendum on this issue – the sooner the positive, tolerant result comes through, the sooner we can shut idiots like you up for good.

    ‘Language policy has failed to protect anything as numbers volunteering to use Cymraeg fall’ Oh, please. Spare us. I can’t make it any clearer than I already have – look at the 1991 referendum results and the overall growth of population, etc and your argument just falls to pieces. You accuse me of rolling out the same old arguments, but the fact is I’ve proven you wrong every time, and yet you cling to your prejudices like some old woman with a grudge. Grow up.

    Gwen – I agree, but this isn’t about ‘live and let live’. I’d be happy to let Whistleblow3r and his ilk live completely through the medium of English, that’s their choice and it’s entirely possible for them to do so. However, I will not stand idly by while a fascist mocks my language, insults my culture and accuses my fellow Welsh-speakers of being extremists who want to ‘force’ themselves on anyone and everyone, because it’s simply not true. Welsh speakers have suffered enough hate over the years, and I won’t let it go unchallenged any more than a black person would allow a racist comment to go unchallenged.

    B Griffiths – I admire your common sense and down-to-earth attitude. Whistleblow3r (sorry, I gag every time I have to add that ‘down-with-the-kids’ number 3 into his name) is a sad, pathetic example of a small mind trying to reject something which he fears and fails to comprehend.

      • Whistleblow3r
      • February 27th, 2013

      Once again time for the truth – Cymraeg is coerced in EM schools – yes EM schools E being English language in English medium schools. Wales is in Britain where English is the lingua franca. Not all of Wales uses Cymraeg. To force it is brilliant though, as it is having a detrimental effect!

      “the fact is that most people accept that learning Welsh in school is a positive thing.” In a recent radio cymru survey 56% of people preferred choice – Doh! lies exposed again.

      “There have been no protests” – I guess passively disapplying themselves from these compulsory lessons and not bothering to sit any form of qualification is not a protest because they are not formed into a politically motivated fanatic sect. Your loony opinion once again shattered – just check the JCQ figures for data.

      btw – it only takes one match to burn a thousand trees

      Now for the utter nonsense that you espouse; democracy = majority rule. Democracy means all peoples have equal and fair representation – coercion is not a democratic right. But then your side doesn’t do choice.

      Yawn – falling back on the 1991 census to defend the losses made since 2001 is a joke. But then all you can do is look back in anger and keep peddling the lies and deceit which is all worthy of a job at the publicly funded BBC.

      Less people speak Cymraeg now; so what good has compelling people to speak Cymraeg done. Keep it up!

      Cue vulgarities and tired insults for the your argument is like swiss cheese … lol

        • B Griffiths
        • February 27th, 2013

        For the 10th time nobody is forced – just as nobody is forced to study Maths and English, its been part of our national curriculum for 20 years and long may it continue. Does Welsh medium education and Welsh second language teching needs improving? Yes. Does it need investment as they do in Catalonia and the Basque region? Yes. It is you who are against choice – to deny our children a bilingual education which naturally gives them a choice later in life. If I had a pound for every person who has told me “I wish I learnt Welsh in school” I would be a very rich man.

        I keep receiving updates emails about this post, so can you all stop feeding this troll, WB, who cowardly hides behind his pathetic pseudonym. His language racism is absurd and tedious. Let WBlower stew in his own blinkered anti-Welsh bitterness, inferiority complex and bigotry. Bigotry is a poison like carbon monoxide, someone who has an irrational antipathy towards a race, religion, ethnic group, language, sexuality, anyone ‘different’. You fit the bill WB.

        The Welsh language is a cultural treasure – one of Europe’s finest.Times have changed, and those of us who love and cherish Welsh are happy to tell its enemies where to go. We should have had the courage long ago.

      • Quite right, B. I’ve had enough of talking to this trash, he’s had his limelight for quite long enough.

        I suppose we Welsh-speakers should all tremble in our nazi-style jackboots and start building bunkers with ‘No English Talk’ crudely spray-painted on the doors. Time to prepare for the inevitable popular revolution against our evil, pantomime-villain plot to make Wales more Welsh.

        (Must remember to pack a spare copy of BiLingo’s ‘Protocols of the Elders of Cymraeg’, just so I can have a good giggle while legions of peace-loving Gogwatchers ‘democratically’ kick my door down. Perhaps WB will join me, he probably wanks to that sort of thing.)

        Long live tolerance, long live truth, and long live the jewel that is Cymraeg. It’s been fun, guys.

        Cymru am Byth!

        • Whistleblow3r
        • February 28th, 2013

        Brilliant the insults and denigrations are all emanating from the self appointed ambassadors of Cymraeg. Fabulous example to show us all LLan B Osian ap Griffith Hughes – you are a “bute”.

        Keep on keeping on – you are doing more and more damage.

        So you admit that Cymraeg is a coerced lesson?

        I have never opposed making any subject optional – so what are you scared of? Time for you to start eating humble pie.

        Hilarious to make accusations of trolling when it is clear for all to see where the hate is coming from.

        You just don’t get it. You are doing more harm than good by forcing children to opt out of learning on a daily basis.

        Still happy St David’s day for Friday – you know that day to celebrate the Saint famed for his monastic work and life of asceticism NOT famous for his ability use Cymraeg. “It’s the little things”

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  17. Dydd Gwyl Dewi hapus i bawb, diolch am fy nghefnogi yn y ddadl uchod B, Gwen Llan ac eraill. Rydw i am ddileu fy nhanysgrifiad i’r blog, fodd bynnag.

    Mae’r ddadl wedi ymostwng i lefel lle nad yw cyflwyno ffeithiau neu wybodaeth bellach ond yn ennyn dirmyg a sylwadau di-synnwyr gan unigolion un-llygeidiog fel Whistleblow3r (sydd yn byw yn Auckland, Seland Newydd, fel rydw i’n deall? Efallai dylai dreulio ychydig o amser yng Nghymru rhywbryd, byddai hynny’n dda iddo dwi’n meddwl.)

    Dymuniadau gorau i Eyeonwales, gobeithio byddech chi’n dal i greu erthyglau diddorol fel yr uchod.

    Pob hwyl, a Cymru am byth!

      • Whistleblow3r
      • March 2nd, 2013

      Happy St David’s day Osian et al. It is a pity you were not up to the debate, however it only takes one match to burn a thousand trees, regardless of where they reside.

  18. I seldom comment, but after reading through a lot of responses here Gogwatch and the execution of the Welsh
    language. | eyeonwales. I actually do have a couple of questions for you
    if it’s okay. Could it be only me or do a few of these comments appear like they are written by brain dead individuals? :-P And, if you are posting on additional social sites, I would like to follow everything new you have to post. Could you post a list of every one of your social community pages like your twitter feed, Facebook page or linkedin profile?

    • Helen
    • April 6th, 2013

    Osian speaks English when it suits him – believe me I know!! Ask his friends.

    • Gwen
    • April 8th, 2013

    Helen – That’s a good point! Why doesn’t “eye on Wales” run this blog in the Welsh language and not in the English language they so obviously despise?

      • Meic Owen
      • April 8th, 2013

      “Gwen”….yawwwwwwwnnnnnnn

    • Gwen
    • April 10th, 2013

    Meic – That’s right Mike stay in snoozy land and let the rest of the world go by. Hear nothing, See nothing but say a lot, as long as it is in Welsh. You should boycott this page, after all it is in English and not in your beloved Welsh – what does that tell you? People would not read it if it was not in English. This country needs people like you – Dream on -Dozy!!!!

      • Meic Owen
      • April 10th, 2013

      Mae Jacques yn cysgu…cysgu…zzzzzzzz

    • Gwen
    • April 11th, 2013

    Strange how Meic/Mike/Jaques resorts to infantile behaviour when he cannot answer a question – “pity for him”

    • Tom
    • May 21st, 2013

    Ble Mae’r Gymraeg???

      • Whistleblow3r
      • May 22nd, 2013

      There it is … On the illegally applied poster.

        • llan
        • May 22nd, 2013

        Whistleblow3r (or anyone who agrees with him), s4c are looking to make a series of programmes about the differences in opinions over the language. The idea is that people with opposing views on the subject spend time in each others lives (similar to Wife Swap) to see what they can learn from each other. would you be interested in taking part?

        • Whistleblow3r
        • May 23rd, 2013

        Interesting parish boy (the same llan that has regularly used insults to engage in a debate about the purpose of Gogwatch and Cymraeg) am I correct in my assumptions that S4C is seeking to publicise the fact that it is OK to be Welsh and not speak Cymraeg? Could you forward or publicise a link to such a programme, or maybe an email address?

        Forgive me for doubting the sentiments of such a post or any programme sponsored by S4C to represent English speaking Welsh people fairly. After all this is “eye” on Wales…

        • llan
        • May 23rd, 2013

        i came up with the idea about a year ago after reading lots of forums and blogs about the welsh language. opinions are so polarised that its hard to imagine that we are living in the same country. the idea is that people with these different perspectives and experiences spend time in each others lives to see if there’s anything to be learnt to lessen the gulf between them. i approached s4c with the idea, they like it and have pencilled it in for next year. the production company is now looking for people to take part, people with strong opinions they dont mind sharing. its easy for me to find people in the pro welsh camp, what we need to find is people in the other camp.

        my understanding of it is that the programme itself will not seek to judge or to present an arguement it will just observe from an arms length, much as most programmes of this vain try to do.

        theres no email or website, if youre interested or know anyone who would be interested (or of anyone else fancies it) just let me know. perhaps after that we could exchange email addresses and i will pass your details on to the production company.

        • Whistleblow3r
        • May 26th, 2013

        If there is such a programme in the pipeline and the production company are seeking contributors I expect you could easily locate a production company email address to post on this site and other sites. Good luck.

        • llan
        • May 29th, 2013

        not everything in wales is a conspiracy whistleblow3r:
        aled.davies@cwmnida.tv
        and mine is annibyniaeth@hotmail.com

    • England
    • May 28th, 2013

    This is all academic and your views are as bigoted and ridiculous as you claim appear on gogwatch. If Wales without its ugly 2nd language spoken by a tiny minority becomes England, then presumably Ireland, Scotland, Australia, USA, Canada and many others are all England? I think not. They are culturally very different. You are all so wrapped up in linking your identity with language that you miss the bigger picture. Even France is now seeing a desire from some universities to teach courses in English as its domination of the world grows and accelerates. It is no longer the language of England, but an international language which is added to every day by all of the many countries which speak it as a 1st or 2nd language. You are disadvantaging your children in the name of pride. Your moribund language will vanish and English will dominate – its already happening and although the tiny minority of welsh people who speak welsh are very vocal indeed, it will still die. I am bilingual with family in another european country, but my 2nd language is spoken by hundreds of millions in many countries so aids me. Your language dies not aid, but the lack of focus on English hinders. I have a nephew brought up speaking both languages that I speak. His speech and vocabulary suffered in both, especially the 2nd language, and he was below par until a relatively late age. It is not a natural occurrence that a child learns two languages from first starting to speak thus we are not well suited to it regardless of biased claims. I’ve seen the evidence many times. Perhaps learning a 2nd language later does help, but that is after the mother tongue has been well established. Hide in ignorance and blow your trumpets perhaps because you really have deep-seated inferiority complexes and a realisation that your poverty stricken nation is unimportant, lagging behind and mocked. Sadly this won’t change due to foolish ignorance and pigheaded pride and insular thinking and behaviour. North Wales is sadly racist, xenophobic and bigoted. At least the south is catching on and thriving as a result. At least until the for ed teaching in welsh shows it’s true cost and no one in heavily populated England wants to use pidgin English speaking welsh people. May as well employ more Indian folk many of whom speak impeccable English.

      • Meic Owen
      • May 28th, 2013

      Four good English words will do to describe the anonymous troll ‘England’ above. Racist, bigoted, insular, stupid. Go back to typing “I hate muslims” with your bnp mates. Jog on.

      • Whistleblow3r
      • May 29th, 2013

      Can you please explain your use of the word Troll? In the OP it is evident that extreme views are acceptable all you can do is call any opposition “trolling”.

      Is that the best you can do Michael? How mediocre.

      #fail

      Wales has two cultures Welsh (English speaking Welsh people) and the Cymry (Cymraeg first language). By using different words it all becomes clear.

      Q fanatical insults…

    • England
    • May 29th, 2013

    Meic, this will be my first and last response to you as you have shown an inability to be mature and discuss, instead responding in a puerile way and making ridiculous assumptions to try to smear my character to detract from my views. Shameful. I do not support the BNP and I certainly do not hate Muslims – the ones I have personally met have been wonderful people who put many of us to shame. So try again, eventually your random stabs in the dark might hit something.

    And logically, if I am a troll then so are you. In fact, your message fulfils more of the criteria.

    I will admit though, I chose the nickname for amusement in the same way one drops a stone in a clear puddle to see the mud and silt rise.

      • Meic Owen
      • May 29th, 2013

      Find it quite amusing the nameless anti-Welsh bigots on here always resort to name calling because I won’t tolerate their prejudices.

      • Whistleblow3r
      • May 30th, 2013

      You are in good company England…

      “Cycling hero Sir Chris Hoy branded a ‘bigot’ by Scottish nationalists in online campaign of abuse after raising concerns about independence
      Six-time gold medal winner subjected to vile online abuse after airing views
      Said Scottish athletes would find it harder to compete as independent nation
      UK minister calls for SNP leader Alex Salmond to condemn attacks”

      Seems that it is a common thread when one opposes nationalism or fanaticism. Any attempts to coherently present tolerant arguments to fundamentalists such as Michael, are met with the machine gun of intolerant abuse.

      As for nameless, my name is Blow3r … Whistle Blow3r

        • Meic Owen
        • May 30th, 2013

        Bringing politics into this again nameless internet troll? Yawwnnnn. Thought your bitterness and resentment was about the language?

        If you can see past your own prejudice has it ever crossed your mind (albeit a very small journey it must be) that Welsh people speak Welsh because it’s as natural as breathing for them, not to prove a point!

        I couldn’t care less which party is in power but the great and important thing is all parties in Wales value and support the language.

        You’re on your own in your chip-on-your-shoulder, identity crises, xenophobic, anti-Welsh racism.

        On your own in your fear and intolerance of cultures other than your own.

        On your own in your minority bashing and bigotry.

        I’m off to the Urdd Eisteddfod tomorrow with my kids to see kids from all over Wales, many from English speaking families, compete and enjoy themsevles in Welsh. Makes me proud to be Welsh.

        I’ve wasted enough time with the pathetic troll, whom let’s face it, don’t have much in life to worry them if this is the only thing you go on about. Hwyl fawr blodyn.

        • Whistleblow3r
        • May 31st, 2013

        Enjoy the eisteddfod Michael, don’t get too bored.
        Remind me can you compete in the English language, a song maybe or a poem?
        Just wondering, because Wales is, after all, bilingual is it not?

        • llan
        • May 31st, 2013

        Whistleblow3r i have an email address for you but unfortunately my post providing it has been waiting for moderation on this blog for a few days. is there anyway else i can get it to you?

        • Whistleblow3r
        • June 3rd, 2013

        Why are liberals so rude to the right?

        Too many people who lean left would rather crack nasty jokes than actually be liberal and listen to other views.

        http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/may/27/why-are-liberals-rude-to-republicans

    • llan
    • May 31st, 2013

    Whistleblow3r i have an email address for you but unfortunately my post providing it has been waiting for moderation on this blog for a few days. is there anyway else i can get it to you?

      • Whistleblow3r
      • May 31st, 2013

      Try posting it on another site, e.g. walesopinionslive or just post it with gaps e.g. “post it here” all one word at yahoo dot com

    • Paul
    • July 2nd, 2013

    Meic Owen always resorts to insults when he is challenged!! Have you noticed that, despite frequent questions on the subject, not one person has every answered why, if the English language is so hated and the Welsh language so revered, is this column not in Welsh – Ble Mae’r Cymraeg? Is it because, as one post suggested, very few people would read it?

    There’s your answer Meic/Mike!

    • Sarah
    • July 6th, 2013

    Apartheid is alive and kicking in Wales – No wonder Doctors and other professional people want to leave and no one wants to work here.

    • Andy
    • August 20th, 2013

    Gogwatch? Almost certainly the work of a Serb living in North West Wales called Jaques Protic.

    Many of you may be unfamiliar with the name, but if you follow Welsh political blogs then you will have read his comments under a host of pseudonyms, ‘Jon Jones’, ‘Mo Patel’, etc. Once one is exposed another emerges. He also comments as Jacques Protic. The giveaway is that they often appear on the same post ‘supporting’ each other. On Twitter, Protic can – or could until recently – be found hiding behind a number of handles including: @gogwatch, @GLASNOSTORGUK, @cymnot, @Plaidodo (also used as an e-mail address), and @momopatel1960. This ‘Mo Patel’ Twitter account has now closed, but I’m told it started off using my gravatar with the eyes scratched out and the mouth taped over! There are almost certainly other identities. Though strangely, for a high-powered, international businessman, I can’t find a Twitter account in his own name.

    Protic is also, allegedly, the man behind the now defunct Gogwatch website and it is further suggested that he ran the Glasnost blog. Given his obsessive hatred for the teaching of Welsh (read this), there are many who believe that Protic was also BiLingo. Although not naming Protic this blog establishes the link between BiLingo and Gogwatch. BiLingo caused a great deal of hurt to good people, dedicated teachers, through having its lies repeated by English newspapers.

    Not only does Protic sometimes write in his own name, he has even stood for election. In May this year (2013) he offered himself to the electors of the Aethwy ward on Ynys Mon as an Independent candidate . . . he gained 3% of the vote.

    • Ffynnon
    • January 12th, 2014

    Can’t wait for English employers to start imposing English tests on job applicants from Wales. Not fair? Yet it happens every day in Wales ….

  19. Thanks for finally talking about >Gogwatch and the execution of the Welsh language.
    | eyeonwales <Liked it!

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  1. May 1st, 2014

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